store

As Jesus reports, after 15 years of selling J&M merchandise, CafePress got a notice from the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority telling them to take down all store items featuring images of Mo. We never made a lot of money from the CafePress store (a 2-figure sum paid out every year or two), but it was nice to offer t-shirts, mugs etc to people who wanted them. Will let you know if we find an suitable alternative outlet who won’t buckle at the first hint of protest from a censorious government.

In the meantime, if you’d like to support the comic by other means, please consider becoming a Patron. If you can spare a dollar or two a month, it really helps to keep us going:

Become a Patron!


Discussion (145)¬

  1. smee says:

    Are you selling the thongs?

  2. M27Holts says:

    Thong end of the wedge?

  3. Marcus says:

    Yay! You must be getting to them. They wouldn’t censor you if they didn’t fear the message.

  4. Jesus F Iscariot says:

    Author-artist, do you ever get concerned that these superstitious fanatics will attack you in some concrete way? Teachers here (Toronto) for example, have been formally chastised for showing some of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons in the context of censorship and such—after Koran Thumping parents’ complaints to school authorities. Some Ayatollah-You-So might send a message with some armed nutcase to express his dissatisfaction. Today’s caricature of Microdick Mo (PBUH) might not go over well. Anyway, sorry to sound like your anxious mother.

  5. Mockingbird says:

    Pakistan . . . . World leaders in Nothing . . . . . except Bullshit.

  6. When going out to the store, he wears it as a facemask. He likes the aroma.

  7. Donn says:

    do you ever get concerned that these superstitious fanatics will attack you in some concrete way?

    I’ve always assumed that’s the point, at least in part – the cartoon’s reason for existence is to stand up for the West’s tradition of freedom of expression. Are there others? Hope so. But of course it could easily be a dull exercise, and the cartoon makes it a lot more and goes well beyond that initial impetus.

  8. M27Holts says:

    Pakistan? Isn’t a pakistani plastic surgeon the finest in the world at repairing acid burnt women’s faces…he gets the most practice…

  9. paradoctor says:

    But long ago you established that the Mo that we see here is Mo’s body double.

  10. tête de pioche says:

    Does He ever visit a hairdresser? Someone does the waxing.

  11. Glenn Anderson says:

    “…the cartoon’s reason for existence is to stand up for the West’s tradition of freedom of expression.”

    Personally, I thought the reason for the cartoon is to attack everyday Muslims. The real criminals (eg. Bin Laden or Abu Bhakr al Baghdadi) are never satirised. The plight of Muslim journalists in Arab countries who are being jailed, tortured and attacked for exposing the lies and corruption of their leaders is never defended. The fact that it was these same Arab leaders, and not the journalists, who marched with the President of France allegedly “in defence of freedom of expression” was never satirised.

    There are other examples, but the point is the cartoons are a poor vehicle for defending freedom of expression but an ideal weapon for belittling your normal Muslim (who, by the way, demonstrated their desire for democracy and freedom of expression through the Arab Spring). This is the sort of behaviour you expect from people with low self-worth (or perhaps a geopolitical agenda), and not brave defenders of “the West’s tradition of freedom of expression”.

    That’s my opinion.

  12. jb says:

    I don’t see the cartoons as attacking everyday Muslims (or Christians, for that matter). I see them as attacking ~~ISLAM~~. Not the same thing at all.

  13. Glenn Anderson says:

    Edit: This is the sort of behaviour you expect from people with low self-worth, or people driven by economic interests (e.g., conquest in pursuit of oil, or commercial interests promoting a certain lifestyle) or perhaps a geopolitical agenda (land), and not brave defenders of “the West’s tradition of freedom of expression”. A coalition of interests.

  14. Donn says:

    jb, I don’t think it’s even really attacking Islam. I mean, for some value of “attack.” There’s a good deal of poking at the theological absurdities, but really – if you’re a Christian or Moslem, and thus take on faith certain preposterous things based on a hoary old document that has been compiled over centuries, it isn’t going to be news to you that people can find something to laugh at there. If there were a real agenda to attack Islam itself, I think you’d see the difference. But it’s a fine point, because Islam is so tightly bound to the repressive culture etc. that certainly Jesus & Mo does attack.

    But – Glenn – where were you in 2005? Look up “Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy”. The first Jesus & Mo cartoon came 2 months later. From wikipedia:
    After the Danish government refused to meet with diplomatic representatives of the Muslim countries and would not intervene in the case, a number of Danish imams headed by Ahmed Akkari visited the Middle East in late 2005 to gather support around the issue. They presented a dossier containing the twelve cartoons from the Jyllands-Posten, and other depictions of Mohammed alongside them, some real and some fake, including one where they claimed he was portrayed as a pig, seen as forbidden and unclean in Islam. This last image was proven to be an Associated Press photograph of a contestant in a pig-squealing contest and, when presented with this and other falsehoods, the delegation’s press spokesman admitted the goal of the tour had been to stir up hostility.

    If the imams and mullahs had not tried to force the Western press to censor cartoon images of Mohammed, none of this would be here – as fun as it is for a few of us.

  15. Glenn Anderson says:

    So what’s the purpose? So far we’ve got two conflicting statements.

  16. Glenn Anderson says:

    “…if you’re a Christian or Moslem, and thus take on faith certain preposterous things based on a hoary old document that has been compiled over centuries, it isn’t going to be news to you that people can find something to laugh at there.”

    So its because you believe Muslims “take on faith certain preposterous things based on a hoary old document that has been compiled over centuries” that Muslims should be mocked and belittled? What if you are wrong?
    From my own research I have yet to find serious scholarship that shows that the Quran is inconsistent with what we have learned through science. I’m not talking about the “miracles of the Qura’an” just simply whether it says something like the world is 6K years old, of Noah’s ark held all the animals of the world for 40 days, or Moses led over 1 million people into the desert for 40 years (of which there is no evidence despite enormous efforts).

  17. Donn says:

    What’s not to believe about Islam, or other religions? Let’s start with “soul.” But we’ve been through that (even if you believe Penrose, no immortality there.) Angels.

    This is not, however, why I “believe Muslims should be mocked and belittled.” I’m not even really strong on that, personally. But this cartoon mocks various religious and cultural ideas and practices, many of them connected to Islam, and I sure approve of that. They deserve to mocked, those ideas and practices.

  18. Glenn Anderson says:

    “They deserve to mocked, those ideas and practices.”

    Okay, so we are about mocking people if they believe in god, wear a hijab, they prayer 5 times a day, they fast for a month each year, and I guess we are mocking them because they don ‘togas’ and meet up once a year to circle a big box?

    And why do they deserved to be mocked? Well because they believe in god, wear hijab, prayer, fast, go on hajj, and basically because they do things differently, and I guess because they don’t conform to your expectations. That makes a lot of sense…I’m sure…to someone…perhaps… I feel a Monty Python script coming on…

    Anyway, sounds a bit churlish or puerile doesn’t it?

  19. Glenn Anderson says:

    So are Muslims to be mocked because they are non-conformists? Or because they fail to see how super rational and intelligent you guys are? Its must be annoying for everyone concerned.

  20. Glenn Anderson says:

    This is so funny. I must show the kids.

    So many double standards and contradictions in one post…let me count the waves!

  21. Glenn Anderson says:

    So is there a rational explanation for this cartoon? What is its purpose? Is it fit for purpose? Is it achieving this purpose?

    They are simple questions.

  22. Donn says:

    It will make more sense if you don’t turn it upside down.

    I’ll tell you what, though – while this one is obviously presented in a spirit of defiance of censorship, as always the purpose of this stuff is humor. That it is in fact funny, you’ll just have to take my word for it, but that’s its proof of validity. Maybe you want someone to reach through the internet and grab you, and make you drink the draught that will set you free from this sick bondage to the imams and their religion, but that isn’t going to happen. You will cut yourself loose, when you have it in you.

  23. Glenn Anderson says:

    That’s not a rational explanation. For example, why is the Prophet depicted naked? What’s the purpose? Presumably revenge. But then why not the President of Pakistan. It was his decision to make a complaint about the t-shirts so why isn’t the President being satirised?

    The only explanation I can think of is it is some form of collective punishment against Muslims.

  24. Glenn Anderson says:

    …and then if Muslims complain about why you are depicting the Prophet naked you’ll say “we are defending freedom of expression” and “satire has a long and illustrious tradition in our culture” (as if it doesn’t in the Muslim culture).

    But this isn’t true. Its disingenuous. In really, its a silly response, without any rational grounds. Its just collective punishment against ALL Muslims because of the actions of the Pakistani President.

  25. Glenn Anderson says:

    ” Maybe you want someone to reach through the internet and grab you, and make you drink the draught that will set you free from this sick bondage to the imams and their religion, but that isn’t going to happen. You will cut yourself loose, when you have it in you.”

    Interesting. So its more about attacking “ideas and practices” such as not drinking?

  26. M27Holts says:

    Glenn for fuck’s sake…take the blue pill….

  27. Glenn Anderson says:

    before or after the draught?

  28. M27Holts says:

    It matters not…

  29. Mockingbird says:

    Glen – You really must have a long chat with a grown up.

  30. Glenn Anderson says:

    yes, you’re right mockingbird. I’ll leave you guys to your amusing little fetishes.

  31. Mockingbird says:

    Perfect example of bullshit here in this thread with Glen. Posters here have attempted to go into deep philosophical discussion with a nutter.

    One cannot discuss bullshit. Note Glen’s circular argument. His whole concept is based on bullshit and you are trying to have a discussion with him?

    Before you get into deep discussion on Islam take note that they roll around on a mat 5 times a day because it pleases their god. You don’t need to discuss any further.

  32. Son of Glenner says:

    Glenn Anderson: “What if you are wrong?” This is our old friend Pascal’s Wager. It occurs to me that, as well as being used by a theist against an atheist when the theist has run out of arguments, it could equally well be used by a believer in one religion against a believer in a different religion. Or indeed, by the atheist against the theist!

  33. Son of Glenner says:

    The population of Pakistan is around 3% of the world’s population. (Total Muslims are around 23% of the world’s popuation.) How arrogant of the Pakistan Telecoms Authority to tell (not ask but tell!) a print company in another country, not even a majority Muslim country, to discontinue a set of product lines. (They would have every right to ban these products from being imported into Pakistan.) I can imagine the reaction of the Pakistan government if, say, the USA government, told them to take action against their Muslim citizens persecuting Christian or Hindu neighbours.

    Did the Pakistan Telecoms Authority make any threats of action against Cafepress if Cafepress told them to mind their own business, and continued to offer the products in question?

  34. samhuff says:

    Son of Glenner

    Done it “The Simsons”. ‘What if we are worshipping the wrong god or in the wrong way and just making god angrier and angrier?’

  35. Son of Glenner says:

    The population of Pakistan is around 3% of the world’s population. (Total Muslims are around 23% of the world’s population.) How arrogant of the Pakistan Telecoms Authority to tell (not ask but tell!) a print company in another country, not even a majority Muslim country, to discontinue a set of product lines. (They would have every right to ban these products from being imported into Pakistan.) I can imagine the reaction of the Pakistan government if, say, the USA government, told them to take action against their Muslim citizens persecuting Christian or Hindu neighbours.

    Did the Pakistan Telecoms Authority make any threats of action against Cafepress if Cafepress told them to mind their own business, and continued to offer the products in question?

  36. Son of Glenner says:

    samhuff: Also Richard Dawkins often makes a similar point.

  37. Glenn Anderson says:

    SoG: ““What if you are wrong?” This is our old friend Pascal’s Wager. ”

    From my understanding Pascal Wager’s involves erring on the side of caution when it comes to the unknown (which doesn’t seem to make to much sense because belief has to be sincere).

    My question was rhetorical because I know Donn’s remarks are base on ignorance based what we Western scholarship can tell us about the Quran and other texts, and Islam historically.

    However, there are very few people these days interested in what serious scholars have to say presumably because it conflicts with what they want to believe. However, its all there for those serious about learning.

    If your suggestion that I’ve “run out of arguments” is the only ‘bow in your string’, then I’d suggest you need to do some serious research of your own.

    Anyway, I’ve got myself to worry about and Mockingbird’s advice is well appreciated because it has prompted me to return to the company of those who are mature, wise and knowledgeable.

  38. Jesus F Iscariot says:

    Glenn Anderson says:
    February 17, 2021 at 11:59 am
    yes, you’re right mockingbird. I’ll leave you guys to your amusing little fetishes.

    GREAT!! THANKS FOR STOPPING BY! SORRY WE MOCKINGBIRDS DROVE YOU TO A PAROXYSM OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS WITH THE “AMUSING LITTLE FETISHES” (AS YOU SEE IT).

  39. Mockingbird says:

    Glen – “Anyway, I’ve got myself to worry about and Mockingbird’s advice is well appreciated because it has prompted me to return to the company of those who are mature, wise and knowledgeable.”

    Off you go then Glen. Make sure your toilet faces East, same as the rug you are butting on 5 times a day. Otherwise your god will be angry. Just the kind of wisdom the world needs.

    Bullshit never sleeps.

  40. Laripu says:

    The precept that Mohammed’s image should not be depicted is not an element of western culture. The ban is not even universal in Islamic culture, since Persians produced art including images of Mohammed.

    See: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30814555
    and https://www.newsweek.com/how-ban-images-muhammad-came-be-300491

    The ban isn’t even in the Koran, but only in supplementary teachings.

    So why the vehement and often violent opposition to westerners portraying Mo? I contend that it’s a psychological condition, mostly among uneducated and poor Muslims, and instigated by those who would take political or economic advantage of the large mass of uneducated Muslims.

    The psychologist condition stems from the fact that despite their belief that they possess absolute truth, the will of God has them far down in the hierarchy of the nations of the world.

    We actually see a similar thing in the increasing militancy of poor rural Christians in the United States. Not as bad as militant Muslims, certainly. But bad enough that some have bombed abortion clinics and killed abortion doctors. There are plenty of tv evangelists who are happy to instigate hurt feelings and get rich doing it.

    The Author had a very small business going, selling stuff adorned with his own handiwork. There’s nothing more moral and less exploitative than earning your living with your own work. That living was threatened by people who retain power by inflaming the passions of others. Therefore this cartoon is not just apt, but perfectly apt. If people do something ugly in the name of religion, it can be depicted as ugly.

    Talking about images, here’s an idea for the Author. Many churches throughout Europe have images of great ugliness attached to them, carved in stone. How can that be satirized? See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judensau

  41. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Glenn keeps asking why the cartoons are funny.

    Glenn, jokes are like frogs: you can take them apart to try and discover how they work, but in the process you will kill them.

  42. Glenn Anderson says:

    The “people who retain power by inflaming the passions of others” were NOT satirised.

    “If people do something ugly in the name of religion, it can be depicted as ugly.”

    Brendon Terrant massacred 51 men, women and children in the name of Western values, therefore the West and its values can be depicted as ugly?

  43. Glenn Anderson says:

    “Glenn keeps asking why the cartoons are funny.”
    No. I’ve said previously that i have found some cartoons funny but not in this case when used as a weapon for collective punishment.

  44. Mockingbird says:

    When a CARTOON offends you, it is time to take a close self analysis because you are unable to laugh at yourself.

  45. Author says:

    Glenn, don’t be silly. The purpose of Jesus & Mo is to amuse atheists. It is not for Muslims, or Christians, or believers in woo of any description (although there are regular readers from all those groups, and they are welcome). So the idea that the latest strip is intended as a “collective punishment” is preposterous. You read it, you were upset, you imagined all the Muslims in the world being similarly upset, but you forgot the main fact: this comic strip is not *for* you.

    You are posting too much, Glenn. I don’t think it is healthy. I have refrained from banning you so far because your posts are mostly thoughtful and not abusive. But I will not let you dominate the conversation here. I suggest you restrain yourself.

  46. Glenn Anderson says:

    “So the idea that the latest strip is intended as a “collective punishment” is preposterous.”

    It really doesn’t matter what the intention is when clearly the effect is to say: If someone does something wrong and they are Muslim then it is legitimate to attack all Muslims and their religion because this is what will amuse atheists.

  47. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Glenn, me old China, when Author is gracious enough to drop you a hint rather than just banning you, it’s maybe not a good idea to argue with him.

    As for ‘No. I’ve said previously that i have found some cartoons funny but not in this case‘: so you only kill the frogs you don’t like?

  48. Anonymous says:

    Author – Do try to get a grip ! Just had an email from a friend who wants to buy me a J&M teeshirt. Clicked on the shirt here . . . . . . Nothing.

    Where-ever you are hiding your items for sale get ’em out. Make ’em easy to reach or we will have to send to Pakistan for them. :o)

  49. Paul Seed says:

    He said he was leaving. Has he gone now, or is he imitating Moses?

  50. Mockingbird says:

    Hey Anonymous – How did you do that? That was my post, when I pressed “Submit” it came out with your name on it.

    Seems only fair that when I eventually get the Teeshirt I am after, I can pay with your credit card. I might as well buy a mug as well while I’m there. :o)

  51. M27Holts says:

    Right. Glenn is gone. What amusing fetish can we discuss next. AOS likes dissecting amphibians…SOG possibly likes to drink single malts whilst wearing a skirt and going commando…I like to fill my dry-suit with cold baked beans and then attempt to put it on whilst watching re-runs of “I love lucy” on my dvd…

  52. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: Please don’t call it a skirt – it’s a kilt. Otherwise you’re spot on! Pretty clever for a Manc!

  53. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Woah! I’m on the side of not dissecting amphibians. As for your dry-suit idea, cold tinned spaghetti sounds far more appealing – at least, more appealing than eating the muck.

  54. M27Holts says:

    There you go, the first schizm, i’m a baked bean fanatic (the beano is the final word of our lord…read it and laugh kids) and you have sold your soul to the fecking flying spaghettl monster….splitter…

  55. M27Holts says:

    SOG. Been all over Scotland, Glasgow, Edinburgh (worked at the University) , Loch Ness, Dundee, Largs…ok. a kilt, don’t slice me up with your Claymore…

  56. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Just trying to find a use for the muck that doesn’t involve eating it, Holts.
    I do think that beans are for eating, but preferably not ones that have had the dry-suit treatment.
    Another potential schism: dry-suit or wet-suit? I’ve always known them as the latter.

  57. M27Holts says:

    Did a bit of scuba….learnt in largs, scotland with the son of a professional north sea deep sea diver. I used the dry-suit for diving in northern british waters….too feckin cold for a wet suit…tho I have dived in those in warmer waters. Also did a bit of cave diving…that is seriously for adreneline junkies….frighteningly dangerous…

  58. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Ah, so they’re different things, not different names for the same thing. I did not know that. Thank you.

  59. Troubleshooter says:

    My physique inspires desire in women and fear in men.

    Except that, according to the first J&M cartoon, we’re NOT dealing with the real Mohamed here, but with a BODY DOUBLE! How do we know there hasn’t been a divergence between the two of them since that first opus? This doesn’t even mention that TINY thong, which would be lucky if it could hide much of anything!

    Also, there’s the matter that there aren’t supposed to be ANY images of Mo … ever, Ever, EVER!!!

    Mo, you got some ‘splainin’ to do!!!

  60. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    At least Mo doesn’t have a cheeky testicle hanging out this time.

  61. Troubleshooter says:

    @AoS Wadaya mean, THIS Time?!? [giggle!]

  62. Mockingbird says:

    Troubleshooter’ – See ” ball2 February 11th, 2011″. :o)

  63. Troubleshooter says:

    Many thanks, Mockingbird! And for those of you who are interested, here you go:

    https://www.jesusandmo.net/tag/testicles/

  64. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Good grief, that was ten years ago almost to the day. That’s how long that image has been burnt into my brain – some things are so horrific they can never be unseen.

  65. Mockingbird says:

    Some of us think it’s all bollox. .. .. .. ..

  66. Bruce Vereshagen says:

    Can anyone translate what is written on Mo’s marble sack?

  67. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Bruce, at a guess it’s “I ‘heart’ Allah”.

  68. M27Holts says:

    Perhaps its a serial No….android Mo , a terminator from the 7th century CE?

  69. Mockingbird says:

    AoS – A good guess, I LOVE ALLAH.

    But I think closer examination of the Arabic symbol reveals it’s not ALLAH . . . . .

    It’s GLENN.

  70. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Brilliant 🙂

  71. HaggisForBrains says:

    Thanks, Author, for getting the chat here back to normal, and thanks, guys, for the laughs.

  72. Mockingbird says:

    Brilliant?? Na, your only saying that because it’s true.

    (How do you make those smiley faces?)

  73. That guy over there says:

    Well, off to become a Patron then. BRB.

  74. Laripu says:

    I need one last point. Glenn wrote:
    “Brendon Terrant massacred 51 men, women and children in the name of Western values, therefore the West and its values can be depicted as ugly?”

    The west and it’s values are regularly skewered in satire over everything, independent of the Australian mass murderer in NZ. Have you never seen newspaper political cartoons? Or heard Lennie Bruce or Richard Pryor? What about Noam Chomsky? There’s so much criticism of the west and it’s values that it has caused the counter-reaction of the jingoistic right wing.

    In order to make this amusing for others here, I offer a link to Betty Bowers, “America’s Best Christian”, explaining bible-based marriage: https://youtu.be/FvlpT7kkO2Q

  75. Son of Glenner says:

    I have been folowing the J&M strip (religiously!) since around late 2013, when media reports, of students being banned from wearing J&M T-shirts at some event, first made me aware of its existence.

    In all that time, I can only remember one other commenter before Glenn being excommunicated by Author. The previous one was an annoyingly evangelistic Christian, whose name I have forgotten (well, my memory is not so good at 80 years old!). In both cases, Author was more patient and tolerant than perhaps they deserved, and did give them fair warning.

    Given the nature of the strip, the generally good-humoured comments and discussions each week are remarkable. It is also remarkable that Author has managed to fly under the Pakistani radar for 15 years before being shot down. (But not destroyed!)

    If this reads a bit like a vote of thanks, that’s exactly what it is. Repeating the remarks of HaggisForBrains, “Thanks, Author, for getting the chat here back to normal, and thanks, guys, for the laughs.” Would all of you now in the old Cock & Bull pub please raise your glasses in appreciation of Author and the wonderful Jesus & Mo strip.

  76. M27Holts says:

    Glenn was a convert. In my experience converts are more fanatical than those brought up in the religion….mind you woo in general is still given far too much coverage in the media. I was shouting at the telly this morning at a silly white haired woman who is doing an expose on the inrease in wicca… I thought she was going to be be on the side of the sceptics…but as a white witch herself she explained that witchcraft is as valid in terms of a world view as the male dominated science bosses and everbody should realise that magic is as real as anything else…I nearly fookin exploded…

  77. Mockingbird says:

    SoG and M27 – NORMAL???? Normal !! How dare you accuse us of being “normal” here.

  78. Mockingbird says:

    And you, Haggis.

  79. Donn says:

    He was a troll. No doubt a believer and convinced he was doing what needed to be done, but everyone has some motivation and it really doesn’t make any difference in the end, it’s how you conduct yourself in an exchange. Constant twisting, shifting and circling is not a real conversation.

  80. M27Holts says:

    I never called anybody in tbe cock n bull “normal” what is normal?…here I am with more eyes, ears, arms and legs than the average person….

  81. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Mockingbird, for a smiley face it’s : – ) without gaps.

    Holts, very clever. I assume the average is close to 1.999 of each per person?

  82. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Son of Glenner, I remember that annoying evangelical clown. I had a little fun with him myself. If memory serves, he’s the one who lost his shit when I asked him a question about his faith and when he answered I told him to go and look at the last comment on a previous strip. That comment, which I’d left just minutes before asking him the question (and which was obviously time-stamped so he couldn’t accuse me of cheating) was an almost word-for-word prediction of his answer. He was not a happy bunny: said some rather un-Christian things about me, he did.

    I do recall an earlier commenter being banned, a guy called Mohammed, a muslim with a poor grasp of English and a very low opinion of atheists. He gave us the wonderfully evocative and memorable phrase “Atheists sex the road like dogs“. I’m sure that a few of the old-timers here must remember that little ray of sunshine.

  83. OtterBe says:

    AoS, Mohamed was fun, but I miss Nassar — purveyor of exceptionally execrable free-form verse that was occasionally cogent and-once or twice-almost brilliant. Had a fair few wild theories about that one at different times.

    And I wonder about FreeFox: is that cheeky arse still skipping about in the gutter? I hope so

    To past & present patrons I raise my glass

  84. allison says:

    The comic doesn’t attack muslims, you stupid retard. Don’t post here ever again.

  85. M27Holts says:

    AOS. My old maths teacher, used that example to explain why the mode and not the median/mean is often better used in statistical analysis…aye the median or mean will be less than 2….

  86. M27Holts says:

    I remember that islamic geezer who reckoned our women were all sluts because they chose to reveal their hair or summat. And we all have sex in the streets like dogs….

  87. postdoggerel says:

    OtterBe I have dozens of NBH doggerel bits that I have clipped out over the years. Here are a few.

    Atheists on a religious holiday
    Occasionally have something smart to say
    But why celebrate
    What you ridicule in debate
    Or do you just like to hear yourself bray?

    Now Nassar, whose rhymes are mere braying,
    Would like atheists all to start praying,
    Though “religion” to him
    Is a mere Yankee whim
    From a pre-Celtic rite, long decaying

    The religion they spout is a farce
    The words in their books rarely parse
    But the priest, he says “So?
    “There are things we can’t know”
    And then sticks his head back up his arse.

    There is a punishment with every good deed.
    When kings and theologians started to inbreed.
    The resulting bastardized curse.
    Made government and religion very much worse.
    Through legally sanctified taxes, tithes and greed.

  88. Laripu says:

    M27Holts, of your looking for something to make you mad, how about this: https://www.dailywire.com/news/asking-students-to-show-their-work-in-math-class-is-a-form-of-white-supremacy

    It’s the latest thing infuriating me.

  89. Mockingbird says:

    Postdog’ – Very clever, more please 🙂

    AOS – I did it 🙂

  90. jb says:

    Laripu — Thanks for that link! Despite being quite conservative myself, I am always cautious when evaluating stories on political web sites, including conservative ones. But I followed some links, and yep, here is the 82-page instructional guide the article mentions, and it’s every bit as bad as they say it is.

    I am now fully convinced by John McWhorter‘s argument that antiracism has effectively become a new religion. He first advanced the argument here, and in a more recent article relates one of the most pointed and astonishing anecdotes I have ever encountered. I’m sorry, but it’s so amazing I have to quote it in full:

    The new faith also manifests itself in objections to what its adherents process as dissent. A friend wrote on Facebook that they agreed with Black Lives Matter, only to have another person—a white one, for the record—post this reply: “Wait a minute! You ‘agree’ with them? That implies you get to disagree with them! That’s like saying you ‘agree’ with the law of gravity! You as a white person don’t get to ‘agree’ OR ‘disagree’ when black people assert something! Saying you ‘agree’ with them is every bit as arrogant as disputing them! This isn’t an intellectual exercise! This is their lives on the line!”

    This objection seems studiously hostile until we compare it to how a devout Christian might feel about someone opining that he “agrees” with Jesus’ teachings, as if the custom were to think one’s way through the liturgy in logical fashion and decide what parts of it makes sense, rather than to suspend logic and have faith.

    (McWhorter happens to be black, and it’s a sad commentary on the current moment that this enhances his credibility and makes it easier for him to write things like this. A white person would be reflexively slammed as a racist).

  91. Son of Glenner says:

    Laripu: That article about white supremacy in maths classes looks suspiciously like a spoof to me.

    If it is meant seriously, it shows that the USA is possibly beyond all hope.

  92. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Mockingbird; easy when you know how, innit?

    Son of Glenner, the guide to the characteristics of white supremacy culture is real although the reporting around it is somewhat misleading.- hardly surprising, given that the guide itself is not about what most people think of as white supremacy. The aim is to change ways of thinking and acting that are prevalent in the west which the authors contend differ from those of cultures not of white European origin.
    The basic idea is that because western culture naturally developed from white Europeans it is by definition not inclusive of other cultures, so the guide was written to be used in community-based workshops and so-on, to show how traditional western ways can be exclusive of others and offer solutions. The misleading reports of it being used in schools are probably because the project is also aimed at teachers to get them to change their teaching methods, and is not intended to be used as direct-to-student classroom material.

    There is much to disagree with in the guide, most of which is clearly based on idealistic thinking around the idea that western ways are white supremacy by default. Even things as innocuous as expectations of punctuality or the fact that sometimes there clearly are wrong ways of doing things are seen as examples of ‘white’ thinking, but I defy anybody to tell me that there is no wrong way to wire a plug safely.

    To my mind, the guide itself contains one glaring error – namely that it implies a monolithic ‘white’ culture which is in opposition to a monolithic non-white culture – which is in contradiction to its solutions for each perceived problem, which is to allow everybody to do things in the ways and norms of their individual ancestral cultures.

    I understand the thing in principle but as a solution to the problems of universal inclusivity in multi-cultural societies it is totally unworkable.

    The guide, which is at the link below, is an extract from Dismantling Racism: A Workbook for Social Change Groups, by Kenneth Jones and Tema Okun, ChangeWork, 2001. https://www.showingupforracialjustice.org/white-supremacy-culture-characteristics.html

  93. M27Holts says:

    Laripu. As soon as I saw, mathematics, objective and false in the same sentence..My dawkins-hitchens post-modernist-bullshit detecting sunglasses immediately became opaque to prevent an aneurism due to my blood pressure going thru the roof….

  94. Son of Glenner says:

    Acolyte of Sagan: “Mockingbird; easy when you know how, innit?”

    I now realise that when Mockingbird wrote “AOS – I did it!”, he/she was referring to the smiley face emoji.

    I originally thought it referred to having sex in the street like a dog!

    Sorry, Mockingbird!

  95. Mockingbird says:

    S O G – Woof !

    Cocks leg and retires. 🙂

  96. raymondm says:

    “Personally, I thought the reason for the cartoon is to attack everyday Muslims.”

    “I don’t see the cartoons as attacking everyday Muslims (or Christians, for that matter). I see them as attacking ~~ISLAM~~.”

    These comments are quite shocking and totally unjustified.

    “…the cartoon’s reason for existence is to stand up for the West’s tradition of freedom of expression.”

    It’s never occurred to me that the cartoons are attacking *anybody* or any religion. And though they are certainly an example of freedom of expression, I’ve never thought that taking a noble stand was their raison d’être. They are good-natured, light-hearted entertainment.

  97. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    SoG, re “<I originally thought it referred to having sex in the street like a dog!
    Well, we were all young once. As long as it was ‘like’ and not ‘with’ then what better way to kill time waiting for the last bus home?

    Reminds me of the guy moaning to his sex therapist that he’s absolutely fed-up with having sex doggy-style, so the therapist asks why he doesn’t try missionary for a change.
    ‘Are you serious?’ says the guy, ‘Have you ever smelt a poodle’s breath?’

  98. Donn says:

    Have you wondered why he goes by “Author”? I assume it is not the name given to him at birth. Is he just too bashful to take credit it for it under a real name, might be, do you think? It’s my impression that he’d be suicidal to do it under his real name, which casts an unusual complexion on good natured, light hearted entertainment.

  99. Donn says:

    As Paul McCartney said – why don’t we do it in the road? Reportedly after having seen monkeys go that route in Rishikesh, and thinking how much less complicated our lives could be.

  100. Mockingbird says:

    Donn – It really is nice in the road.

    But it’s much better on top of the wardrobe.

    Especially some-one else’s wardrobe. Trust me !

  101. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Donn, Author is Author because some people believe that murder is an appropriate response to humour. I’ll let you in on a secret, though: Author’s name is [redacted]. It’s true, I tells ya.

    Mockingbird, don’t ever try it inside a wardrobe. I did once: the weird cackling noise from behind the coats was off-putting enough, but when a feckin’ great lion popped its head out from between the shirts it near scared the bejaysus out of me.

  102. Mockingbird says:

    Donn – I think I remember her. The one with the pointy black hat, dodgy teeth and no tits.

  103. Someone says:

    Mo is right, if I saw that body in that thong coming at me, of course I’d be afraid and would default into fight or flight instincts.
    Most likely fight, since I do violently detest pedophiles.

  104. M27Holts says:

    ^ what flavour of paedophile are we talking about? Surely it’s another non-binary position in the 50 billion shades of grey that is human sexuality…

  105. M27Holts says:

    Anyway. That C.S.Lewis geezer, I reckon he made up that land of Narnia… 🙂

  106. Mockingbird says:

    Jesus & Mo are wonderful. Four scruffy frames hit the nail on the head every time. Glenn’s (and others) pages and pages of text don’t get close.

    That’s Authors gift. Buy another J&M mug now. 🙂
    – – – –

  107. Larry Maler says:

    Son of Glenner, I thought it was a spoof at first too, because it’s being echoed by many disreputable right wing groups.

    I’ve found the web site that contains the course that Oregon teachers have been asked to take, but haven’t downloaded it yet to check whether it’s true for myself. It’s here: https://equitablemath.org/

  108. Donn says:

    There’s a companion curriculum at the university level, for kids on the equitable math track. It’s called “remedial mathematics.”

  109. M27Holts says:

    When I was in high school 1976-1981 the calculus was taught us. I have a mate who makes his living teaching graduates maths so that they can get to the level required for the science degrees they hope to pass…I reckon the a-level I took was a lot more advanced than those of today…

  110. Donn says:

    It isn’t really unusual for high schools to teach calculus, to advance students, as in my day about half century ago. What probably needs more attention, for a broader range of students, is the basic concepts of statistical analysis, since it’s so broadly useful these days.

    What it says to round up a few kids and teach them the advanced stuff, is “you’re going on to do serious work at college.” What it says to teach kids equitable math, is “you ain’t going nowhere.”

  111. postdoggerel says:

    More NBH, as requested. This should suffice.

    Must admit the maid who sells beer
    Is for the most part, relatively sincere
    For the atheist creed
    Is dogmatic indeed
    Another cult of religion is here.

    Actually, the much maligned niqab
    Is the clothing of a slob
    The wearer can drool
    Or chew like a mule
    Some times, disguised,even a bank, rob.

    The question, is somewhat empirical
    Of what kind of thing is a miracle
    Apparently it has to be
    Something others can’t see
    But their minds causes to boggle

    Behold today’s feminist, dismal
    Representing women, abysmal
    Women movements in remission
    To superstitious submission
    Nothing inside a feminist skull.

    The author has granted us latitude,
    To comment – for which we express gratitude
    But with scansion appalling,
    And sentiments galling.
    How Nasser’s revealed his true attitude!

    Universities used to have open minds
    Today their head is up their behinds
    To ban a cartoon
    Show’s the brain of a goon
    If not in college, where does discussion, one find?

    The point that often gets missed
    Stupid also describes the atheist
    For like those who believe
    They cannot conceive
    Any thing that is not on their limited list.

    Houdja misses the point once again,
    As he misses ten times out of ten.
    Because we don’t believe it,
    Don’t mean we can’t conceive it.
    We can, but we don’t, silly Ben.

    Muslim men should confess
    Why they tell women how to dress
    Muslim women are such a fright
    Bruises, scars Shari’a says it’s all right
    To beat a women to a bloody mess.

    It is written “The world is flat”
    In the qur’an, that is a fact
    It is also said
    Apostates to lose their head
    With a sword of it is to get a whack

    My comment, composed cleverly
    Disappeared, where no one can see
    Where did it go?
    Beats me, I don’t know
    Somewhere in the ether, maybe?

    There is no end to magic books
    All of them peddled by crooks
    The koran is the worst
    It steals from the first
    Its writer, thinks its readers are schnooks.

    The joys of laws against blasphemy
    Prevent many a social catastrophe
    Blasphemers stoned
    The qur’an intoned
    Then dissertations on punishment eternally

    “There shall be no compulsion in the religion”
    Well maybe, just a smidgen
    If you can’t get it into your head
    To follow islam, you’re dead
    muslim’s proselytize with murderous obsession

    The koran is irrefutable proof
    Presented by an illiterate goof
    That any thing goes
    islam sucks and it blows
    A silly contradictory spoof.

    An export of the middle east
    Is the belief that men are a beast
    To keep morality intact
    Women are sacked
    Which looks silly, to say the least

    The problem with being outrageous
    Is it tends to be somewhat contagious
    Those indignant folk
    Are a trivial joke
    And really should remain in cages.

    Like in various old books it says
    The old guys wandered around for 40 days
    After straying all over creation
    They get back on their medication
    And come up with an explanation to amaze.

    The “Islamic human rights commission”
    Gets a laugh, to the point of pissin
    The only rites they give, with guns
    Are referred to as the “last ones”
    These dudes need a serious “dissin”.

    An exotic dancer down town
    Wore a niquab instead of a gown
    As it fell to the floor
    The crowd howled for more
    Next was a burka clad clown.

    An atheist thinking critically
    It might happen, eventually
    The critical part
    Natural as a fart
    Thinking, atheist, an impossibility.

    we’re missing you, Nassar Ben Houdja.
    please write some more limericks, couldja.
    make them devilish, ironic,
    put the djinn in our tonic,
    set another round up for us, wouldja.

  112. M27Holts says:

    It was Sandra Harding who referred to the Principia as “Newton’s rape manual”…Having read the book, I fail to extract which parts of the text could be read by rapists in order to improve their proficiency in their antisocial proclivity? Can anybody link a list of rapists to the list of those who have read one of the most important books in history?

  113. Mockingbird says:

    M27 – GRAPE manual. Newton was a wine buff.

  114. Donn says:

    While peeking into that bucket for potential amusement, I found this under “Feminist empiricism”, possibly of great interest judging from recent conversation:
    Post-structural feminism critiques the belief that any viewpoint is impartial; knowledge is not found but constructed. A specific result of this disagreement is the way in which the two theories view gender: feminist empiricism claims that gender variables are based on biological sex, while post-structural/post-modern feminism sees gender as a socially constituted entity.

    As for Harding … not much to go on here, but my casual impression is that it’s a stunt. Long established practice of personifying Nature as a woman, early science writers – Bacon et al. – may have made some remarks about having their way with her metaphorically speaking; she may have dragged Newton into it just because he’s more notable.

  115. Laripu says:

    I’ve now read a bit from the course that seeks to change mathematics instruction. Some of it is sensible, like finding ways to connect the subject matter to students’ experience, particularly when they’re from cultures that aren’t the dominant white culture. Any good teacher should look for ways to connect.

    Some if it, though, is batshit crazy, in a political way. Here are two salient quotes:

    “The concept of mathematics being purely objective is unequivocally false, and teaching it is even much less so. Upholding the idea that there are always right and wrong answers perpetuate objectivity as well as fear of open conflict.”

    “Math teachers ask students to show work so that teachers know what students are thinking, but that centers the teacher’s need to understand rather than student learning. It becomes a crutch for teachers seeking to understand what students are thinking and less of a tool for students in learning how to process. Thus, requiring students to show their work reinforces worship of the written word as well as paternalism.”

    In the 90s, I taught mathematics, as a grad student, at Concordia University in Montreal and at University of Ottawa. I also did years of private tutoring, which paid for the beer and a bit more.

    I can attest that “showing work” is not a crutch for teachers. It is an important thing for the students to learn. You can’t learn mathematics without also knowing how to communicate about mathematics.

    For that matter, you can’t learn anything without learning how to communicate about it. Everyone must learn to write cogently if they are to increase their value to the world. If fields of knowledge and endeavor are politicized by race or gender, that will improve neither those fields nor the society that needs them.

    I offer as an item of evidence: Emmy Noether. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmy_Noether

    She experienced discrimination and still became one of the most important mathematicians of her time. That discrimination no longer exists.

    And another, Eugenia Cheng: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenia_Cheng

    Both of these women worked in areas I found interesting: ring theory (Noether) and category theory (Cheng).

  116. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Re: maths (because there is more than one math) students showing their work. Forget all the political reasons, showing how one came to an answer is the time honoured way of ensuring that the student has not smuggled a calculator into the lesson.
    Yes, I know that the use of calculators is now allowed, which is a pity because all one can deduce is that a student understands how to use a calculator, not that a student understands the maths.

  117. M27Holts says:

    Aye. We used log tables to do long multiplication and division. Plus trigonometry….I got detention for covering my log book in a page from “whitehouse” magazine…how times have changed…

  118. Son of Glenner says:

    I looked up Laripu’s link on Emmy Noether. The mathematical references were way beyond my level of knowledge and comprehension, but my eye was caught by a quote from one of her students when the Nazis removed the Jewish Noether from her professorship: “Aryan students want Aryan mathematics and not Jewish mathematics.” The absurdity of that mode of reasoning is evidently still alive, but, thankfully, without the threat of genocide.

  119. Donn says:

    I haven’t had a calculator since my HP was stolen in the ’70s – do they now do things that substitute for useful mathematical understanding? Is it a pity, or is it common practice because no one could think of any valid reason why not?

  120. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: I can (just!) remember log tables too. Did you also get to use a slide rule? I never had much chance to use one, but they were a bit more elegant than logarithms. The main problem with the slide rule was putting the decimal point in the right place!

  121. M27Holts says:

    Nope. Not a slide rule. Before my time. You probably went to school on a penny farthing tho…

  122. postdoggerel says:

    M27Holts, As the animals left the ark, Noah told them to go forth and multiply.

    After some while, Noah happened upon two snakes sunning themselves. “Why aren’t you multiplying?” Noah asked. The snakes replied, “We can’t, we’re adders.”

    So Noah and his sons went into the nearby forest and felled some trees. They made a platform of logs onto which they placed the snakes. You see, even adders can multiply on a log table.

  123. M27Holts says:

    Since leaving school my most need of maths was solving Navier-stokes equatiions using fortran 77 when engineering storm sewer design software for the planning dept at salford city council…

  124. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    postdoggerel, a doff of my cap for an excellent double pun that almost made up for the reincarnation of Nassar’s terrible poems. The hours I and others wasted trying to teach him the basic rhythm of the limerick form to no avail.
    That he occasionally hit the sweet spot was, I believe, achieved by accident rather than design.

  125. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Holts, I covered all of my school books in pictures of Mary Whitehouse. I was far more niaive back then.

  126. postdoggerel says:

    AOS, as a dyed in the wool doggerelist I was compelled to resurrect NBH. To compensate for that here is a similar sized list from yet another wizard of loquaciousness, grandiloquence, verbosity an eloquence,
    The prolific Christopher Hitchens gloried in being quotable, particularly when he was at his most irascible and incendiary. Hitchens died Thursday after a long battle with cancer. He was 62. His collected bon mots – in books, online essays and magazine articles – run into the hundreds, but here are a baker’s dozen of the best:
    1. “It [Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize] would be like giving someone an Oscar in the hope that it would encourage them to make a decent motion picture.”
    2. “Hatred, though it provides often rather junky energy, is a terrific way of getting you out of bed in the morning and keeping you going. If you don’t let it get out of hand, it can be canalized into writing.”
    3. “A good liar must have a good memory. Kissinger is a stupendous liar with a remarkable memory.”
    4. “Cheap booze is a false economy.”
    5. About Sarah Palin: “She’s got no charisma of any kind, [but] I can imagine her being mildly useful to a low-rank porn director.”
    6. “If you gave [Jerry] Falwell an enema he could be buried in a matchbox.”
    7. “The governor of Texas, who, when asked if the Bible should also be taught in Spanish, replied that ‘if English was good enough for Jesus, then it’s good enough for me’.”
    8. About Mother Teresa: “She was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction.”
    9. “Everybody does have a book in them, but in most cases that’s where it should stay.”
    10. “[O]wners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.”
    11. About George W. Bush: “He is lucky to be governor of Texas. He is unusually incurious, abnormally unintelligent, amazingly inarticulate, fantastically uncultured, extraordinarily uneducated, and apparently quite proud of all these things.”

    I liked the matchbox best.

  127. M27Holts says:

    The famous “Hitchslap”….I believe…

  128. M27Holts says:

    AOS. 🙂 it always amused me that my most explicit jazz mags were titled with her name….

  129. Mockingbird says:

    Postdog’ – Yep. Loved the matchbox

    M27 – At school I used to have fantasies of group sex with Mary Whitehouse.

    And I was the teacher ! 🙂

  130. Dr John the Wipper says:

    postdoggerel:
    As the animals left the ark, Noah told them to go forth and multiply.

    Or so it says (more or less) in most languages now. …. because one of the first translators was a rather prudish guy, and sanitized the text. Deep research ( admittedly, apocriphal) reveals that the original literally meant: “Fuck off and get lost”.

  131. postdoggerel: You’re a bit behind the times. Christopher Hitchens died aged 62 in December 2011!

    Cutting & pasting?

    (I also liked the matchbox.)

  132. Laripu says:

    The quote about English being good enough for Jesus is both misattributed and originally apocryphal. See: https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Miriam_A._Ferguson

    It started, I believe, in the 19th century as a joke about ignorant people. I often make a similar joke: “If god intended that people fly into space in rockets, he never would have given us airplanes.” – but I’ve never heard of anyone actually saying anything that silly.

    Having said that, yesterday I saw this, attributed to Ken Ham: https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2021/02/21/ken-ham-the-perseverance-rovers-budget-should-have-been-spent-on-creationism/

    He may not be stupid, merely protective of the con which is the source of his income. However, if he’s not stupid, then he’s immoral.

  133. M27Holts says:

    Ken Ham is is his stage name. He was christened Shit For Brains…

  134. jb says:

    postdoggerel — You seem to have missed two:

    12. About Michael Moore: “Europeans think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they’ve taken as their own, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities.”

    13. “The four most overrated things in life are champagne, lobster, anal sex and picnics.”

  135. Son of Glenner says:

    jb: Michael Moore? The Americans actually elected a President, who embodied all those qualities!

  136. M27Holts says:

    JB. I agree on two of those four but which ones are they? 🙂

  137. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: Does that mean you’ve tried all four, but you only found (unspecified) two of them overrated?

  138. Mockingbird says:

    Dr John the Wipper says:

    postdoggerel: “As the animals left the ark, Noah told them to go forth and multiply.”

    It has been established that his actual word were “Fuck off and get lost.”

    Innit’ wonderful that all those years ago animals could understand the English that obvously Noah would have been speakin’ ? 🙂

  139. M27Holts says:

    SOG. Aye. 🙂

  140. M27Holts says:

    Meanwhile…on mainstream british T.V. we have a black historian saying that we have “white fragility”….another example of a clearly racist assumption being cleared because black people cannot be racist….then again i’m a white northern hemisphere adapted person…ergo I was born racist…

  141. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: You do realise that, as a white European, you are part of a racial minority?

  142. M27Holts says:

    Aye. Culturally white, anglo-saxon protestant. Tho, I was only christened because my maternal grandmother got god a few years prior to my birth. I was brought up primarily by my grandmothers as my mum wanted a girl and I was born with a penis…from being about 10 I brought myself up…my father worked abroad and my mother didn’t give a fook…

  143. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Careful, Holts, you’re getting perilously close to sounding like a Yorkshireman….or a Country and Western singer!

  144. M27Holts says:

    Aye…can’t stand country music either….but I do know if you play it backwards you don’t hear demonic chants…your car starts working, your wife returns and all the crops in the fields miraculously gather themselves into your barn…

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