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Discussion (26)¬

  1. 1HappyHeathen says:

    the freedom to hate is very important to theists of all sorts and protecting that freedom to hate with the protection of laws is even more important to them…..

  2. Matt R says:

    Whenever I used to hear a muslim say “there is no compulsion in Islam” I would point out the obvious deception in that statement, but eventually I realised people who make that claim have zero interest in facts, truth or logic. Now when I hear it I just want to bang my head against the nearest wall. Was that their plan all along?

  3. sosusk says:

    Of course you are free to put yourself in mortal danger, be excluded from your family ans peer group and generally be thought of as a bad person.
    NOTHING like religious freedom

  4. jveeds says:

    I’m not aware that the Qur’an “commands that we kill apostates.” It may be that various schisms or “alt” groups (like ISIS) believe it, or other terrorist groups. My (admittedly non-expert) reading of the Qur’an indicates that there are certainly instances where a believer may kill an apostate, such as in self- or community-defense, etc. And it may be that extremist groups consider things like colonialism of Muslim countries as an excuse for “defending” by killing the “usurpers” — but that would seem to be a case of extreme interpretation, not a Qur’anic command.

    Can anyone give the Qur’anic evidence for the “command to kill apostates”?

  5. Author, you are the best. Personally I believe in freedom FROM religion, ALL of the many religions that humans have dreamed up. I quote I saw the other day sums it up quite well.
    Humans invented god and have been enslaved to this god ever since. The quote is not 100% accurate and I don’t remember the web site I saw it on. Sorry folks, I have severe COPD and my old brain sin’t has sharp as it once almost was.

  6. Laripu says:

    Matt R, it’s true that there is no compulsion in Islam. When an apostate is being killed he or she is perfectly free to believe in anything at all. That goes for every religion.

  7. tfkreference says:

    Let me know if this is misquoted.

    Quran (4:89) – “They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya’ (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya’ (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.”
    From https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

  8. jb says:

    This is very reminiscent of the Puritan concept of “soul liberty,” which doesn’t mean what you might think it means. Here is an excerpt from Albion’s Seed, by David Hackett Fischer:

    The founding generation in Massachusetts often wrote of “soul liberty,” “Christian liberty” or “liberty of conscience.” Many moved to the New World primarily in hopes of attaining it. What they meant was not a world of religious freedom in the modern sense, or even of religious toleration, but rather of freedom for the true faith. In their minds, this idea of religious liberty was thought to be consistent with the persecution of Quakers, Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans and indeed virtually everyone except those within a very narrow spectrum of Calvinist orthodoxy. Soul liberty also was thought to be consistent with compulsory church attendance and rigorous Sabbath laws. Even the Indians were compelled to keep the Puritan Sabbath in Massachusetts. To the founders of that colony, soul freedom meant that they were free to persecute others in their own way.

    The book is really excellent, and I recommend it to anyone who wants to understand why America is the way it is.

  9. M27Holts says:

    Open the Koran at any page and you will find a quote justifying the shite written within and condemning anybody who says it’s shite….The text itself is so inherently bat shit nonsense that the self justification is proof that even the believers know it’s complete bollocks….

  10. HelenaHandbasket says:

    JB. Albion’s Seed tells me a great deal about the current state of the USA. We all remember that the USA is the country that the enlightenment built. We often forget that much of it was also colonised by a pack of howling lunatics who never really went away, just got bigger, uglier, and gunnier.

  11. Efogoto says:

    tfkreference: THE MEANING OF THE GLORIOUS QURAN by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, 1938, agrees with you:

    “4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,”

    Funny that I’ve not heard about the exception that follows the last comma before:

    “90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.”

    So apostates who flee to a country having a peace treaty with their homeland should be OK, right?

  12. @jweeds says:

    LikeReference: I note that you referenced an avowedly anti-Islam site for your Qur’an citation. Nevertheless, the citation does go to a genuine Qur’anic source. It’s just that I’m a bit cautious when I see an anti-Islam site giving information about the Qur’an. Nevertheless, the Arabic phrase al-wala’ wal-bara’. which means something like, “love and hate (or loyalty and disavowal) for God’s sake only” and basically underpins the idea that a devout practicing Muslim should not take friends or allies, such as in time of war, from among non-Muslims. Or ideally not even from among Muslims who claim to be Muslim but really don’t practice.

    If renegades or hypocrites (a favorite theme in the Qur’an) leave islam entirely or plot against Muslims with the enemy (which was at that time the Arabian pagans), then they are advised to do their best to seize and/or kill them because the devout Muslim believer, is at war with them.

    So it doesn’t really seem to be the case that the Qur’an is actually espousing murdering all infidels, However, extremists may claim that various people or countries, even rulers in Muslim countries today, are actually “unbelievers” who are actively opposing them, thus justifying murder (in their minds).

  13. jb says:

    HelenaHandbasket — You’re thinking of those gunny Southerners I suppose. Fair enough. But I’ve also seen it argued — rather pursuasively I think — that the intolerant politically correct Social Justice Warriors of today are the direct descendants of the 17th century New England Puritans, by way of 19th century Social Gospel Protestantism. The doctrine has changed (a lot!), and all reference to God has been stripped out, but the basic approach has remained the same: burn the witches!

  14. HelenaHandbasket says:

    JB. I wasn’t being partisan about it–I assure you!

  15. tfkreference says:

    jveeds: Yes, I copied the text from an anti-Islamic site (the first google result), which is why I asked you if it was misquoted. I did not copy nor reference their commentary. You confirm that the text is correct, so your criticism of my source is a red herring.

    I agree that the text is not espousing murdering ALL infidels – only apostates.

  16. pink squirrel says:

    the artist gets it in one – ‘the religion of islam commands, the religion not ‘allah’

  17. jveeds says:

    LikeReference: As we agreed, the Qur’an quotation is reasonably accurate, no matter where the referring site is. What I’m saying (and by the way, I’ve got plenty of criticisms of Islam on other counts) is twofold: 1) The text seems to be primarily advocating or allowing murder of those who war or fight against Islam (who could be infidels, apostates, hypocrites, Christians, or any other religion or secular state); 2) I may not have made this point but I’ll make it here: deciphering the words of the recitation is often a tricky matter, like coming up with a clear interpretation of a Christian text. Thus. different schools of jurisprudence come up with different rules and, more to the point, extremist or terrorist groups or individuals may “bend” the words to suit their purposes.

    My main point is: Let’s call out Islam for the right reasons, not for possibly misinterpreted texts put forth by anti-Islamists, misinformed American right wingers and evangelical Christians who think, for example, that shari’ah is taking over as the law of the land.

  18. HelenaHandbasket says:

    jveeds. Sharia might not be taking over as law of the land, but it is running in parallel with the law of the land in some parts of the UK
    And this isn’t some right-wing Daily Mail screamer–this is liberal muslims, in the UK, saying this and needing the support of other liberals.

  19. M27Holts says:

    With the Koran it is repeated ad nauseam on virtually every page. You are either Muslim….or nothing….and besides, when the majority of it was written down the world was a lawless violent hellhole…The Muslims are good at making parts of the world very similar today….

  20. Donn says:

    I checked a couple verses back for contexts, “Sahih” translations, and I don’t see anything about war or violent conflict of any kind. “Hypocrites”, period. The guidance about which ones you should kill – “if they turn back” – evidently why we say it’s about apostates, not all unbelievers in general. But I will say, it could have been clearer. Grabbing ahold of them and killing them, it’s not really something you can make up for if it turns out to be a misunderstanding of precise intentions of whoever wrote that stuff.

  21. M27Holts says:

    It’s controversial but Mein Kampf and the Koran are both products of conquering sociopathic madmen!

  22. Someone says:

    M27Holts, considering that Hitler did get chummy with Muslims during his quest to prove Aryans were superior, in particular a cleric who vocally hated the Jews, your comparison is quite appropriate.

  23. Deimos says:

    M27Holts : well we’ve tried a western military machine run under the principles of that particular german book, didn’t work out too well. So how about letting the military machine that has most “interactions” with Muslims (the IDF) show some cultural sensitivity and use the koran for instruction ?

  24. Dr John the Wipper says:


    Just to keep beating a dead horse: “If palestinians (and their islamic supporters) were to lay down the weapons, there will be peace before next week. If Isreal were to lay down their weapons, it will have been wiped out before next week”

  25. M27Holts says:

    Cultural sensibility? Koranic instruction? Ahh I get it now…those little girls at a Manchester pop concert should realise that they should really be at home with their genitals mutilated and not asking to be blown to bits for not showing cultural sensibility and realising that pop music and women enjoying themselves is anathema to a 7th century death cult…

  26. tfkreference says:

    Thanks, Donn, for saving me the trouble. As with most holy books, adherents and supporters will read in what they want it to say, regardless of the actual words and context.


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