Discussion (37)¬

1. JoJo says:

   March 11, 2008 at 8:31 am

   Come on – be fair. The Catholic Church is no longer as obscenely wealthy as it used to be. Not since it paid off all those victims of its paedophilia, anyway.. So Mo wasn’t really changing the subject after all…. Blessed are the meek.. as long as they’re not too meek to file a writ..

2. r00db00y says:

   March 11, 2008 at 8:40 am

   So how much money does the obscenely wealthy Catholic church have then?

3. Rudis says:

   March 11, 2008 at 9:12 am

   In any case, it is also obscene for reasons entirely unconnected to its wealth.

4. Chris says:

   March 11, 2008 at 10:05 am

   So how much money does the obscenely wealthy Catholic church have then?

   “Bankers’ best guesses about the Vatican’s wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market.”

   From The Vatican’s Wealth

5. JohnnieCanuck says:

   March 11, 2008 at 10:16 am

   For me, it was this chain of thought.

   Damaging the environment is a mortal sin.
   Humans are the biggest threat to the environment.
   The more humans, the more damage.
   Contraception is a mortal sin.

   Religion is nothing if not rational, we all know that.

6. Dave says:

   March 11, 2008 at 10:25 am

   Presumably the irony of issuing “Violation of fundamental rights of human nature” as one of the new sins passed the Vatican by, what with their track record of misinforming AIDS-ridden Africa about condom use, even saying that it promotes the disease.

7. Trevor says:

   March 11, 2008 at 11:59 am

   I don’t know if they were “Catholic”, but I’ll testify to that, Dave. One xian group in Zambia would poke holes in them before a demonstration, fill them with water and then spin them around to show all the leaks. Also heard a lot about how condoms are the CAUSE of HIV and various other insane, counter-productive lies while I was there.

8. Alan says:

   March 11, 2008 at 3:13 pm

   “I don’t know if they were “Catholic”, but I’ll testify to that, Dave. One xian group in Zambia would poke holes in them before a demonstration, fill them with water and then spin them around to show all the leaks. Also heard a lot about how condoms are the CAUSE of HIV and various other insane, counter-productive lies while I was there.”

   As if I didn’t have reason enough to disdain Catholics!

9. Howard says:

   March 11, 2008 at 4:42 pm

   Hrm… I’ve been wondering … which is more obscenely wealthy, the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church? You really should have Joseph Smith stop by … I’d love to see that threesome.

10. JohnnieCanuck says:

    March 11, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    Some of them at least were Catholic. For example Archbishop Francisco Chimoio, head of the Church in Mozambique. The BBC online has an article about his statement, dated Sept. 26, 2007.

    My impression is that this has happened in many countries and many different churches. Fundamentalist Protestants are likely equally as bad.

11. Hamidreza says:

    March 11, 2008 at 9:44 pm

    Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market.

    So we conclude the Italian stock market capitalization is only 1.6/.15 = $10.6 billion. FIAT is at least $50 billion in capitalization.

    Another case of a postcolonial or postmodern who graduated in Cultural or Religious Studies, who failed in math, science, and economics classes, and who can’t count.

    To say that the total market capitalization of Italy is less than $11 billion is a sign of illiteracy. I wish litcrits and Cultural Studies folks would first get an education before they comment.

12. Jed says:

    March 11, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    To the first post, the catholic church didn’t pay out any money to victims of pedophilia. Their insurance companies did.

13. Amit Doshi says:

    March 12, 2008 at 12:49 am

    @Hamidreza The Time article is from 1965, so 10.6 billion would be 1965 numbers not today.

14. Darwin says:

    March 12, 2008 at 1:20 am

    The Church Of Scientology probably is as wealthy as the Mormon Church, perhaps even more so. Dunno if it’s as obscenely wealthy as the Vatican though!

15. Kristian says:

    March 12, 2008 at 5:37 am

    Pedophilia /could/ have been cool in those days, and kids, adults and society /could/ have been totally cool about it.
    It’s 1400 years ago. We don’t know.

    And before you freak out on me: no, it’s pretty effing far from cool today.

    And the irony of the Vatican to include it on a new, improved list of “deadly” “sins” hopefully does not escape the people who compiled the list.

16. ron says:

    March 12, 2008 at 9:53 am

    Why isn’t hypocrisy on the list? Why do we need lists?

17. Uncle Roger says:

    March 12, 2008 at 10:01 am

    “So how much money does the obscenely wealthy Catholic church have then?”

    Well, we can start with two large blocks of prime San Francisco Real Estate: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=37.784268,-122.425423&spn=0.001942,0.004249&t=h&z=19

    Probably looking at $20mil at the very least ($200mil for that piece of property wouldn’t surprise me.) And then there’s the whole matter of not having to pay property tax on it.

18. Jeff says:

    March 12, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    Keep in mind the wealth of the Catholic Church is comprised of only what they are willing to “declare”. Their actual wealth is probably vastly greater. After all, an organization that once effectively ran most of the civilized world has to have stashed away a lot. I would think their art and precious metals collections would be huge, let alone the real estate holdings worldwide.

19. mat says:

    March 12, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    I’m pretty sure the catholic church is still the world’s largest real estate owner

20. Hamidreza says:

    March 12, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    The Time article is from 1965, so 10.6 billion would be 1965 numbers not today.

    Forget the past. It is the present we are talking about. Time is logarithmic and not linear.

    Islamic governments are sitting on 600 billion barrels of oil. And I am not counting real estate or the stock market or nickel deposits, etc. (yet).

    600 billion barrels of oil == 66 trillion dollars == $66,000,000,000,000.

    But nooooo, its the Vatican that is the transgressor, cause Islam is above criticism.

21. Kristian says:

    March 13, 2008 at 2:54 am

    Hamid,
    Nobody said islam is above criticism.
    But it doesn’t all have to be about your own ex-religion, does it 😉

    The Vatican is asking for a bit of scrutiny by publishing an ill-thought out anachronism of a list.

    Hopefully, this pathetic attempt of getting catholics back into confessional booths will contribute to the frequency of confession going down even further.

22. Don says:

    March 13, 2008 at 8:00 am

    Hamidreza.

    Islam above criticism? Here?

    This cartoon is a response to a Vatican pronouncement, it would be odd if the comments were to focus on islam.

23. JohnnieCanuck says:

    March 13, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Hamidreza,

    Go back and read this cartoon again. You missed the part that knocks followers of Islam for the habit of having old men marrying children and adolescents. Even when the subject is Holy See Hypocrisy, the chance to stick a pin in Islam was not passed up.

24. Hamidreza says:

    March 13, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    @Kristian – I don’t have a fundamental beef with a religion that has submitted to the separation of Church and State, even if reluctantly.

    But Islam is fighting not to submit with the most dirtiest tactics (brainwashing children from age 5). It is rather amusing that you don’t see the categoric difference. It is the postcolonial ideology that permeates the outrage-compassion folks. If the religion cries death to America, death to the West, Israel, Science, etc. frequently enough, then they become the good guys, I guess.

    @Don – what is amusing is the attempt to put Catholicism and Islam at par here – an attempt at moral relativism. I am an atheist and intellectually I can’t stand Catholicism anymore than Islam. But to equate the two as far as discourse is concerned, as it is done here frequently, shows a categoric confusion on the part of Author.

    @JohnnieCanuck – you are another confused fellow here. The Church comes out against paedophilia, albeit hypocritically. But Islam commends paedophilia because Prophet Mohammed (May Peace be Upon this Assassin) was perfect and infalliable, and his epileptically deranged utterings are the true, literal, eternal, immutable, and perfect word of god which must be obeyed at the risk of the sword. If you don’t see the sea difference, then you don’t know Islam or have not understood religion.

    I grew up with Islam, and let me assure all the postcolonials and postmoderns, that there is nothing romantic about it. It is a primitive, oppressive religion and a shameful religion the way it treats children, women, and dissenters. Until the day that the Left accepts to attack Islam on Islam’s own standards, instead of relativising it and comparing it to Catholicism etc., we will have to have this disagreement, and I will keep on calling the postmodern a moral and intellectual coward.

    Just because Catholicism has committed crimes and continues to commit crimes, it does NOT ABSOLVE Islam. Please get on with it and shed this pretention to equality and fairness – which is just a way to appease your self-guilt because you irrationally consider Muslims to be exploited and oppressed by the big bad West.

25. Kristian says:

    March 13, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    Give it a rest, Hamid. None of us here really give a toss about any religion. They’re all as bad as each other. Do you think catholicism isn’t brainwashing kids? If my nephews & nieces were older, they might be able to provide you with evidence.
    Back when I was attending a catholic primary school, I was lucky enough to see through it.

    So chill. It’s not all about your ex-god. The rest of us have ex-gods, or would-have-been-gods-had-we-not-seen-through-the-nonsense-earlier as well.

26. Hamidreza says:

    March 13, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Kristian – obviously you can’t fathom the religious fascism called Islam. You have no idea what goes on in places like Saudi Arabia or Iran, when you equate that with Catholicism.

    Let me give you a hint: Capital punishment for blasphemy. What is your equivalent in Catholicism, may I ask?

27. ms morbo says:

    March 13, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    if you look at them year on year (ie, if you take the date on the current islamic calander and look at where the catholic church was on the same date on its own calader) they’re pretty even.

    so islam will probably be where the catholicas are now once they get up to their own 2000.

    …and the scientologists will be about halfway to their “rampant human rights abuses and blowing shit up” phase. though they’re getting off to a speedy start so it could be sooner.

28. BWM says:

    March 14, 2008 at 12:24 am

    New here, but I had something to point out to this Hamidreza; uh, the best I can understand from your posts, you believe that the author should do nothing BUT attack Islam, because it’s so much worse. Yes, it’s way worse than Catholicism. Got it. Understood. Awesome. Doesn’t mean the author can’t rip on Catholicism, Scientology, Mormonism, Judaism, Voodoo, and the religious beliefs of the !Kung if he feel so inclined. Attacking only one religion should, as an atheist, offend you; after all, they are ALL intellectual deceits, even if they have varying degrees of earthly sin in their actions.

    Really, this IS a comic; it’s meant for a combination of fun and intellectual thought. It is not meant to be an anti-Islam blog. And, for the record, I am not a “postmodern” or “postcolonial” thinker, whatever you might view one as being.

    So, for everyone’s sake, including your own, try and have fun, will ya? Pestering will not change anyone’s mind and, furthermore, everyone here seems to essentially AGREE with your main view; they simply don’t agree with the direction you want a webcomic to go in.

29. Jakob says:

    March 14, 2008 at 1:13 am

    @Hamidreza

    Since when does criticising one set of irrational beliefs preclude criticising another?

30. jerry w. says:

    March 14, 2008 at 6:21 am

    Kill them all….

    Let mother nature sort out the remains.

    There, now that didn’t hurt too bad, did it?

    http://boskolives.wordpress.com/

31. Uncle Roger says:

    March 14, 2008 at 9:13 am

    “the most dirtiest tactics (brainwashing children from age 5)”
    Never heard of Catholic school?

    “…then they become the good guys, I guess.”
    Yeah, because Catholics are getting beaten up all the time these days just for being Catholic, eh? Muslims — in the US, anyway — are never assumed to be terrorists or discriminated against or anything. No, nuh-uh, not ever.

    “the true, literal, eternal, immutable, and perfect word of god which must be obeyed at the risk of” stoning.

    Okay, so there’s a difference — Christians are big on stoning, not so into swordplay. All that stuff you mentioned, though, is there in the bible too.

    “I grew up with Islam, and let me assure all the postcolonials and postmoderns, that there is nothing romantic about it. It is a primitive, oppressive religion and a shameful religion the way it treats children, women, and dissenters.”
    I grew up with Catholicism, and let me assure all the postcolonials and postmoderns, that there is nothing romantic about it. It is a primitive, oppressive religion and a shameful religion the way it treats children, women, and dissenters.

    I guess you know what you know. I didn’t grow up with Islam, so I didn’t realize it was as bad as Catholicism. You, apparently, didn’t grow up with Catholicism, so you don’t realize it’s as bad as Islam.

    Why can’t we all just agree to hate everyone equally?

32. Don says:

    March 14, 2008 at 10:51 am

    @Hamidreza,

    I doubt if anybody disagrees with you that Islam currently holds the top slot when it comes to oppressive religious beliefs.

    We just don’t see that as a reason to cut other religions any slack when they come up with something both odious and dumb (such as a new bunch of reasons for going to hell – unless you take advantage of our new improved indulgences special.)

    Most of us here emerged from a christian background, so we are naturally alert to christian churches trying to regain lost authority. Doesn’t mean we are blind to what is happening in islam. Really, we are basically on the same side.

    Someone who came through what you came through will see the religion that oppressed their youth in a different light to those who see it from the outside. Just as someone who came through, say, a Christian Brothers orphanage will see catholicism in a different light to you.

    Same picture, different perspective.

33. J&M says:

    March 15, 2008 at 2:00 pm

    @Hamidreza,

    The Catholic Church was burning heretics at the stake. Heretics included scientists. I suppose that would be the equivalent in Catholicism.

    I’m sure anyone who read this comic is not defending Islam. Most of the comics take a hit at Islam (not including the depiction of Mo and all that) so you’re basically “preaching to the choir” when you tell us it’s bad. What we’re saying though is that the others should not be given any slack.

34. Jonathan says:

    March 16, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    Hamidreza,

    I believe you are quite correct to point out that there is no equivalence between Islam and modern Catholicism. Truly, while Catholicism’s secretive anti-rational cult is a pernicious influence, it is Islam that is a threat to freedom (also in western countries through pressure to squelch freedom of expression), world peace and the safety and well-being of any non-brainwashed citizens of countries suffering under it in one form or another.

    I am convinced that Islam poses the greatest threat to life and liberty of any factor in the world today. Yes, this is a cartoon, but I believe the distinction was definitely worth pointing out.

    For a bit of perspective, from which religion would we expect what sort of action if the author’s identity were to be revealed? From which religion’s followers would police protection be necessary?

35. Bones'sDog says:

    May 2, 2017 at 12:08 am

    As I think they say on “Social Media” (that’s the electronic version of “social disease”, I think), too long, don’t read.
    This, I mean.
    
    
    
    
    Hamidreza, 11/3/08 at 09:44: if LitCrit, Media Studies, Socio-gender Parameterisation Studies and other touchy-feely teddy-bear-hugging subject students could get “an education” they wouldn’t be in those classes, they’d be getting educated.
    The only reason for studying Genderisational GeoPolitical SocioGroupthinks is because you are too ill-prepared to do real academic work.
    Those courses are just Philosophy with fancy wrapping and cute bows. Endless rows of fifty volume, ten-thousand page tomes discussing whether the female breast is obscene and whether existence and being be the same in esse or potentia ab initio, only with some global word substitutions.

    Think anyone will be able to tell that I studied real sciences? The ones with numbers and equations and real world consequences?
    
    
    

    Incidentally, the best estimates for Italy’s gross domestic product I can find puts it at about 10^12 USDollars or so in 2016. A million million dollars. What that means for capitalisation, I have no idea but it has to be a lot.
    According to this completely unbiased, professional and authoritative site that has no agenda whatsoever the RCC is quite a lot rich. Probably richer than most of us.
    Really not entirely poor.

    
    

    Just for BWM’s enlightenment, some of us are post-colonial. We UKlanders certainly are. We lost the last colony in 1999, unless you count Gibraltar, which they don’t, they think of it as part of Britain.
    I occasionally write future-scene SF so I guess I’m partially a post-modern thinker, too, at times, in a way.
    
    

    Hamidreza, I like your anti-Islam rants and agree that Islam is evil incarnate and should be boiled in Marmite forever (with forced ventilation to blow the fumes well away from me) but the only reason the RCC, Scientology and the Mormons are not so bad as Islam is because of the RCC, Scientology and the Mormons. There was a rather large scuffle a while back involving pilgrims, Martin Luther and some other blokes and some bits of the Universal Church (which is what “catholic” means and what it used to be) (at least in Europe and its colonies) protested and split off and became “Protestant” churches.

    This paved the way for the New Men of the United States to get the weird idea of “religious freedom” and “separation of church and State” and other odd notions.
    This helped Protestant and variant Catholic churches everywhere. Other things also helped.
    Because there were more than one church and because every church saw itself as equally likely to get to be the “catholic” one if it could grab enough followers, they started to compete.
    One way to compete was to stop killing, torturing, maiming, stealing from, jailing for heresy and otherwise inconveniencing us all.
    In short, Martin Luther (Great Ancestor of the famous Lex?) (yes, I know, different last vowel but things like that were common on Ellis) started an upheaval that made the leaders of the church (and there was only one) think that being nicer was a jolly good idea.
    At least publicly.

    I don’t know how much world history they teach in Islam schools, I suspect it’s not a lot so I’ve grossly oversimplified several centuries of changes in hundreds of countries covering many millions of people but the essence is there.
    The RCC used to be worse than Islam is today. Much, much worse. Given free rein it would be again. Not it probably would be. It is an osmiridium fact that it absolutely, definitely and certainly would be.
    Probably.
    The RCC has ever learned. Everything it does, everything its priests and popes do tells us this. The fact that priests are rarely shopped to the cops for raping children by the hundreds but are quietly moved to another parish and prayed over is merely the most trifling detail of their utter indifference to the suffering they cause and the evil they are.
    Railing against Islam is good, yes, but the Catholics are just as bad and the Scientologists and Mormons would like to get big enough to be.
    All religions are equally evil.

    Hell, even the Jedi want to commit genocide against their enemies and they are definitely fictional.
    Mostly.
    So far.
    I’m glad I’m not a Sith.

    Disclosure, to prevent it coming up. Dad was a pitiful excuse for a Catholic. Mother was the next best thing to non-religious and apathetic though she did like “Songs Of Praise“. I went to some schools where a religious service or religious studies period was mandatory but I was the quietly rebellious bastard who sat at the back reading. The flesh was sitting but the soul was off fighting Eddore and wishing Gharlane would win.
    The Arisians were monstrosities and apart from Trig, Chris and Nadrek the Lensmen sucked.
    I did read the Bible(s). It took a few days and a lot of note-taking and Library work but that was fun, too. I’ve read other stuff, too, important things like the Vedics and Sagas and trivia like the Koran (not the real one, an English fake) and I much preferred the Greek and Norse stories to all of the others.
    The Indian stuff has too many strange names and the Bible and Koran are too violent.
    The Aesir are cuddly compared to the Abram gods.

    Man this is a long one. I wonder how much it will get edited down to?
    I wonder if anyone will read it all?
    I wonder if anyone will crowdfund new typing fingers for me?
    I wonder whether I need more tea? The mug I had when I began this got finished ages ago.
    Maybe I just need more meds? Higher dosages? My keyboard privileges revoked? Some deity to Zeus my router?

    I’m tired.
    So very tired.
    Y’know, I really am a narcissistic little egotistical ponce.
    Maybe I should have just written a novel this weekend.
    It would probably have irked fewer people.
    And may well have been funnier.

    Does anyone know where the mute button for me is? Where the me-muting button is? How to …

    Oh, so that’s where it was. Good on ye, mate. Have a Fosters’. Have a lot of Fosterses. Be a mate and have all of the Forsterseses.
    
    

    Now, on the subject of leadership …

36. Bones'sDog says:

    May 2, 2017 at 12:14 am

    Jesse’s H. on a fish supper, did anyone actually write that load?

    And he has the cheek to complain about philosophy books?

37. m says:

    May 16, 2017 at 6:06 am

    Jesus condemns hypocrites above all others, to be fair…