Lucky? Or forward thinking?

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Discussion (36)¬

  1. Vanity Unfair says:

    The trustees of the various Tate Galleries are probably feeling a bit on edge, too.

  2. Son of Glenner says:

    Brilliantly topical and funny.

    I had the same thought as Vanity Unfair about the Tate name. BTW does anyone else wonder why there is no Lyle Gallery?

  3. mike hunt says:

    who can see you naked? Your Slaves and children!
    of course, it doesnt say who is allowed to see slaves or children naked

  4. Me not says:

    Brilliant as usual. Just one thing, shouldn’t the get in the first panel be got?

  5. Peter Dykes says:

    Spot on!

  6. Author says:

    Good spot, Me not! Fixing it now. Thanks.

  7. Henry Ford says:

    So when can we start pulling down all these Georgian buildings. Then all those pesky Roman ones too…….

  8. Ron Millam says:

    Why are they jumping on Mohammed? Did Moses forget about the slavery laws established in Exodus 21 & fleshed out (so to speak) in Deuteronomy and Leviticus? And did Jesus forget that he failed to abolish — or even speak out against — slavery when he had the chance? It’s kinda like the snow calling the cotton white, isn’t it?

  9. Jesus F Iscariot says:

    Can we go to all these retail religion outlets (aka churches) on so many corners and pull down the countless statues and plaques of some almost naked Mideast Jewish boy (usually depicted as Caucasian). I find them offensive as cruel and unusual displays of torture and execution.

  10. Alexis says:

    For examples of monuments in America glorifying that which should be abhorred, I recommend James Loewen’s book “lies Across America”. Two examples: there are more monuments in Illinois to KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forrest than to Abraham Lincoln and more in Virginia than to George Washington.

  11. Trevor H says:


    According to an American organization – I forget which one had identified over 1700 such statues etc…

  12. C.Law says:

    Slavery is a topic around which everyone should tread gently. It has been a feature of every society since before recorded history. Tribal societies around the world routinely took slaves from the other tribes they fought and the situation continued though all more advanced(?) societies – Persian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Inca (etc), Arab, Indian, Chinese and all the rest. The big difference with the Colonial Brits and Americans was that they did it on an industrial scale and took the slaves from one general area. However, they didn’t actually go ashore and seize the Africans, they bought them from other Africans who captured them. This is definitely a case of remembering that when you point your finger at someone else your other three fingers are pointing back at you.

    In all the current blaming going on it seems generally forgotten that it was the Brits who abolished the African slave trade and, through the Royal Navy, enforced that prohibition on the USA. Though that is perhaps a case of better late than never.

    None of this is, of course, a justification for slavery or the celebration of slave traders, far from it, merely a reminder that like most other human behaviours it is a very complicated matter.

  13. M27Holts says:

    C. Law you can argue the facts with the snowflakes till you are blue in the face….in fact, facts are the ultimate proof of white supremacist racism….

  14. jb says:

    You would think that every year the issue of slavery in America and in the West in general would recede one year further into the past, becoming progressively less and less relevant to current affairs. Instead the opposite is happening: every year the issue of slavery looms larger and larger, as the descendants of the slaves, although several generations removed, seek to milk more and more political advantage from it, and work out their resentments against the descendants of the slave holders.

  15. Edward T. Haines says:

    Perhaps we should be less upset by slavery which is illegal now and not much of an issue with a few exceptions than with the very real presence of racism at all levels of our society. It is that racism, implicit in the daily lives of citizens of color that creates barriers to successful lives for so many. For every Colin Powell, there are hundreds of young persons discouraged from seeking a rewarding career. Schools are not segregated but financing is based on property taxes causing massive disparities in public education.

  16. CliffB says:

    Mo is wrong! I have a statue of him in my back garden, made from papier mache which, in turn, is created from the pages of copies of the Koran. It depicts him lusting after Ayesha.

  17. OtterBe says:

    Milk political advantage from it, jb? Political advantage being defined as, ‘please don’t kneel on our necks thereby suffocating us over a false accusation of passing a counterfeit bill’? Have you watched the full 8 min, 45 seconds? I feckin >dare< you to!

    Does the name Crispus Attucks ring a bell, fellow American? 240 years ago he died at the hands of troops ‘policing’ Boston. Generally regarded as the first casualty of our Revolutionary War. Black man, iirc. This has gone on far too long, and you disgust me with your suggestion that those objecting to such brutality are doing so for political gain.

  18. OtterBe says:

    *250, godsdamnit: he was killed in1770

  19. jb says:

    OtterBe — Google “Daniel Shaver”. It happens to white people too, but because they can’t make it about race the mainstream media has little interest, so most people never hear about it. (Watch the video, if you can bear it. And then consider the fact that not only was the officer not convicted of anything, he was actually allowed to retire with a pension due to the PTSD the incident gave him).

    Also, can you explain why I should care so much about one guy who died 250 years ago? A lot of guys have died since then. Does his being black make him special somehow? This is a picture perfect example of what I was talking about: taking incidents from the distant and ever receding past and trying to milk them for present day political purposes!

  20. Laripu says:

    jb – it doesn’t make the dead person special. What it does is enhances the crime.

    We treat crime differently based on motive. A planned killing is worse than a spur of the moment unplanned killing, which is in turn worse than an unmotivated killing due to negligence. A killing for self defense is usually not even punished.

    So as a society we deem a crime motivated by racial hatred to be worse than a mere unmotivated crime.

    Another examples:

    We can see the difference between mere grafitti on a building and a swastika painted on a synagogue. The second is more than vandalism; it is also a threat.

    We can see the difference between killing a black person to rob him of property and killing him by hanging him from a tree. The second one acts as a threat to black people everywhere.

    Crimes motivated by hate have their own category.

  21. tinkling think says:

    Laripu said : “A killing for self defense is usually not even punished.” [in USAlien so my speelchugger is triggered].

    This, friend, is not true. Not always. Why, some honest, hard-working, upright, good and true Police Constables have already been punished for accidentally and unintentionally slightly harming a vicious, evil, violent offender who callously and without regard to the horrendous potential consequences attempted to violently destroy The Economy by forcibly passing counterfeit currency while defending themselves and the Society At Large from this monstrously heinous criminal. Those poor, little, innocent Police Constables were horribly deprived of their very livelihoods for mere Self-Defence actions that resulted in a less than perfect outcome.

    “Self Defence”, even “Defence Of Others” is no longer considered an adequate defence against malignant prosecutions in these times of pandering to the mob among which Political Correctness is running amok.

    Why, if even Police Constables can be harassed for minor accidents with trivially undesired consequences, no one is safe and the cover that you were simply defending Life And Limb from extraordinarily vicious money corrupting counterfeiters Hell-bent on wrecking the very fabric of The Community is utterly nullified.

    We should all be scared. Soon, they, the Hell-spawned Harridans of the P.C. Brigade will come for us even should we plead for our lives while being throttled by a gang of costumed super-villains and Robo-creeps thugging their way along our streets.

    “Self Defence”, it seems, is no defence. Not when the mob is all riled up by petty “injustices” committed millennia ago by those now so very long dead in an era when such actions were not even considered unjust.

    Yes, Laripu, hate is a crime all in its own and those reactionary, unthinking, hate-fuelled snowflakes are consumed by it.

    Won’t anyone thing of the poor, innocent, little Police Constables?

  22. tinkling think says:

    Laripu, think like a particularly rabid and crazy Defence Attorney from the TV serial “Law And Order” and it is relatively easy to create such lack-wittery. It most be even easier for those who in reality are Defence Attorneys and who, in consequence, think in that mode as a rule.

    Them and the mutable, of-the-moment opportunists we promote as elected politicians.

    It is not difficult to posit insane concepts as The Truth when your vast incomes depend upon your skill at bending Reality with colourful verbiage. What may be a small burden is washing the taste from your fingers.

    Fortunately, I have hand sanitiser.

  23. IanB says:

    [i]jb says:[color red]you would think that every year the issue of slavery in America and in the West in general would recede one year further into the past[/color][/i]

    The debt the UK took on to compensate the owners was only cleared in 2013, that means I, everyone else in the UK and particularly the descendants of the enslaved have been paying for it. 20% of the richest families owe their present wealth to that payout. So forgive but it is far from the flipping past.

    [i]jb says:[color red]seek to milk more and more political advantage from it, and work out their resentments against the descendants of the slave holders.[/color][/i]

    That’s a long-winded way of saying I am a racist but thanks for letting the world know

  24. M27Holts says:

    Ian B. I was phisically abused and also subected to subtle sexual abuse by my mother. My father was a violent drunkard on occaisions and also a gambling addict…and yet I am constantly told I am a priviledged white man….yeah sure I am….

  25. Donal Feran says:

    M27Holts, I am feeling deep pain over what happened to you; I know from personal experience that it’s something that shouldn’t happen to anyone.
    But I think you don’t really understand what “white privilege” means; it doesn’t mean that nothing bad will ever happen to you, only that bad things are much less likely to happen to you during your lifetime solely because of your race or the color of your skin.
    For example, it means that you’re not very likely to wind up dead after a routine traffic stop. It means that you probably won’t be observed closely or followed around to make sure you’re up to no good when you go to a store. It means that you’re less likely to get odd looks if you’re driving a shiny new luxury car. It means that when you enter a fine dining establishment the maitre-(whatever*) is less likely to wonder if you can really afford to eat there. It means that as a white man, you’re likely to earn significantly more for the job you do than someone who is neither white nor male doing the exact same job. The list goes on and on and as white people we hardly even notice it happening, but it happens to non-white all the time . . . .

    *I don’t know how to spell that; I don’t frequent places like that m’self

  26. Eon says:

    Donal Feran – well said

  27. Someone says:

    Despite being pale as the moon and speaking English as my native language, I have experienced some degree of discrimination for being born and raised in the USA but having moved to live in Australia.
    The reason being is that my differing accent will, more than half the time in a discussion, give the other person all they reason they need to be apprehensive that I’m clearly a foreigner. Unless I pretend to be Canadian, that hostility is increased because fuck Americans and everything they stand for.
    This I have experienced since before Bush Jr’s administration and have never seen an end to such attitudes. These largely come from white xenophobic types who tend to have a bigoted attitude towards anyone who isn’t a white (just white), Christian, heterosexual and Australian-English speaking person born here, but also from those who use the weak argument, “Oh, it’s actually your SYSTEM we hate, not the people themselves!” Bullshit. Even if I tell them I didn’t vote for orange Hitler (which is true), it makes no difference to them.
    All this is a minor inconvenience to those who are from other, non-English speaking nations, or of non-white ethnicities. A friend from work is a well-spoken Englishman but because he’s of African descent, he will likely experience more discrimination on the basis of his skin tone than I before he even has a chance to open his mouth.
    To sum it up, it doesn’t matter where you are or where you come from. A native (for lack of a better word) of a country who holds a bigoted view and is unwilling to see the views of others will always find a way to shit on others’ viewpoints, even if they are perfectly reasonable and don’t impinge on the rights of others. Sadly, this type of prejudice seems to come mostly, or most notably, from white people who want to hold on to their privilege for dear life. And the solution is not to curl up in a ball and let the abuse begin, nor even highlight abuse they have received from others (yes, I know led into this comment which such an example) but to stop acting like cunts and denigrating people who are different than them, no matter how think or wide the margins may be.
    It is not treating people with equal respect that causes war, violence and protests but the opposite that reaches a boiling point. Many people who read this will be smart enough to know that. But one has to wonder why so many people don’t let such common sense sink in and instead favor attitudes that clearly don’t result in anything good.

  28. Someone says:

    Missed ‘compared’ after minor inconvenience. But you get the idea.

  29. Son of Glenner says:

    Someone: You say “Even if I tell them I didn’t vote for orange Hitler (which is true), it makes no difference to them.”

    Perhaps the xenophobes you refer to would regard voting for Trump as a point in your favour!

  30. Donal Feran says:

    “white people who want to hold on to their privilege for dear life”
    I understand that . . . but it’s not like pie, where if someone else gets some I lose some of mine . . . is it? That seems to be the perception of a lot of white folks, and if they’re comparing “mine to yours” then I guess it’s sort of true. If I need someone else to be worse off to feel better about myself then I sort of understand.

  31. Laripu says:

    tinkling think: you called what I wrote “lack-wittery”, and compared it to an American crime drama.

    The simplest of my examples was that there is a difference between simple graffiti and a swastika painted on a synogogue.

    Recognizing the difference does not in any way make the structure receiving the swastika special. It recognizes the motivation of the crime.

    Similarly there’s a distinction between a killing due to distracted driving, which is unmotivated, or a killing of a cop to prevent arrest, which is strongly motivated.

    Why do you fail to recognize that those are valid distinctions, and denigrate such obvious reasoning by comparing to an American crime drama?

    Should motivation never be considered in the punishment of crime?

  32. Someone says:

    Son of Glenner, I’ve long since given up trying to make sense of such people. I don’t think it matters much which side you’re on to them, only that your from the country the rest of the world loves to hate by default. Though there are plenty of Trumpists here, and people like him that do their best to control the masses.

    Donal Feran, I don’t know about pie but there are too many people who are utterly self-entitled and feel that their world would be turned upside-down if changes were made to the benefit of those demanding it. I personally don’t expect a rich white person to suddenly lose their 5 bedroom mansion because the law gets reassessed so that black people aren’t shot in the street, or left in prison with virtually no care for the most minor of crimes.
    Though now that you mention it, pie does sound good.

  33. tinkling think says:

    Laripu, you wound me then I die,
    I take some time to say “goodbye”,
    I wash my hands of all my songs,
    I wander off with sad “so long”.

    I only meant to hurt the evil ones.
    You take me wrongly, so I’m done,
    I won’t be doing jests again,
    I walk away with all my pain

    Misery and loneliness.

    {{Hugs}} The artist formerly known as TT.

  34. jb says:

    While I still have a chance I thought I would add a couple of other examples of questionable police killings that got ignored because the victim was white: see here, and here, and here. In two of those cases the victim was suffocated while in police custody, just like George Floyd. Oh, and here is an example of the sort of violence that never becomes more than brief local news, and certainly never causes riots.

    Also, do you know the actual number of unarmed American blacks shot by police in 2019? Numbers supposedly matter, and given all the ruckus you might think it was a lot, but in fact it was nine, which is an absolutely trivial number in a nation of 330 million people. The corresponding number for whites was 19. There is no evidence here for police racism, just human fallibility. The whole BLM thing is a gigantic, corrupt, and dangerous moral panic.

  35. jb says:

    I made a comment yesterday that went into moderation and hasn’t shown up yet. Normally my comments show up immediately (which is something I like about this forum). As far as I know I used my usual credentials. Did I make some sort of mistake, or say something that triggered a filter?

  36. jb says:

    Hmm, this one showed up immediately.


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