Discussion (44)¬

1. Maura says:

   November 18, 2015 at 12:50 pm

   Someday, the thugs running ISIS will become honoured leaders of a country or tribe or semi-governmental organisation with a representative in the U. N., an ambassador in London and several Swiss bank accounts.
   They will meet the Queen, have lavish meals in Guild Halls and country houses and be protected by squads of our police when they visit.
   They will become “legitimate”.
   Then some other thugs will rebel against them.
   And the terror and the killing will begin again.

2. nemo81 says:

   November 18, 2015 at 1:19 pm

   I am not a hateful person and have worked in Islamic countries, had young women cry over my lack of Islam and had very confused looks when mentioning my lack of religion – such a concept does not compute out in indoctrinated minds… I had translations of the Islamic good book left on my desk and offers to save me – all well – intentioned. I met nobody who openly at least said they wanted to kill me or make me change my un-Islamic or indeed un-Christian life style. Many young Muslim men quite enjoy being un-Muslim too if the hotels of Dubai and Muscat are anything to go by and of course the casinos and call girls of Kensington. It’s being human I suppose.

   Fortunately, the psycho, ghetto gangster boys and girls are the tiny noisy minority. Wiser voices need to shut them up and the rest of us need to carry on doing what we do and not to descend into states of emergency, surveillance and hate as that is what those full of one-eyed anger, insecurity and loathing want…but we know that anyway.

3. Bruno says:

   November 18, 2015 at 2:13 pm

   Thanks from Paris. I’ve been following J&M for a while now and I wish it were translatés un several languages for non english speakers.

4. Matt says:

   November 18, 2015 at 2:40 pm

   Amen to what nemo81 says. Sadly I’m a weak human and I wish that the Paris perpetrators were going to burn in hell for all eternity, in the horribly gruesome style of the Quran. Sometimes I wish I believed.

5. Emma Peel says:

   November 18, 2015 at 2:46 pm

   I’m taking my daughter to Paris next summer for holidays. Fuck those bastards. Fuck them all.

6. Jim+Tonic says:

   November 18, 2015 at 2:59 pm

   @nemo81: Isn’t the desire to change your unreligious life-style implied by the leaving of religious texts on your desk? They probably didn’t want to kill you (most people don’t). Instead they wanted to ‘save’ you, which is better but still unwanted.

7. Max+T.+Furr says:

   November 18, 2015 at 3:32 pm

   As usual, author, your wit is razor sharp!

8. white+squirrel says:

   November 18, 2015 at 3:42 pm

   someday…[Daesh]….They will meet the Queen
   would prefer it if it were the queen mum they met
   tho by the time they get there the queen will likely already be along for the party

9. white+squirrel says:

   November 18, 2015 at 4:10 pm

   There are interesting parallels between Daesh, Waffen SS, migration period warrior bands, and a backpatch MC
   In
   a] Attitude to the rest of the world
   B] Free Licence for mayhem and sexual indulgence by young males
   c] loyalty to a symbolic emblem/book even before ‘god’

   clever Mr Bagdadi

10. leweclectic666 says:

    November 18, 2015 at 5:55 pm

    Peace and Freedom through Fear. Praise be to Allah.

11. theGreatFuzzy says:

    November 18, 2015 at 6:13 pm

    How does Mo know what he looks like? Surely he must smash every mirror he ever looks in?

    BTW, Joann Sfar has responded to those offering prayers, http://tinyurl.com/pojh93o

12. Nassar+Ben+Houdja says:

    November 18, 2015 at 6:28 pm

    Islam does not like cartoons
    muslims appear to be goons
    They use the qur’an to back
    Their ignorant attack
    Bird brains, dumber than loons.

13. Michael says:

    November 18, 2015 at 9:37 pm

    I posted this on another blog last Friday: Nous sommes tous Français aujourd’hui.

14. Russ Smith says:

    November 18, 2015 at 9:49 pm

    I must firstly come clean and tell you that I am a practising Christian (Methodist actually) but very much enjoy Jesus and Mo. I like the fact that they are good mates, go down the Cock & Bull together and put the World to rights sitting up in bed (a bit like Morecambe & Wise or Laurel & Hardy) or while sitting on a park bench. As I see it, the problem with the Muslims in our country is that they cannot, or don’t want to, control their nutters. We are very good at controlling our nutters: we put them in prison, asylums, hospital, etc and keep them away from non-nutters so that they do not corrupt them. The Germans in the 1930s were very poor at controlling their nutters and we all know what the result was. Until the Muslims in the UK learn how to control the maniacs who are causing all the trouble, I will be terrified of every one of them.

15. Stephen Mynett says:

    November 18, 2015 at 11:04 pm

    Welcome along Russ, you are more than welcome, informed debate is always interesting, it is the types who post Biblical quotes and hit us with age old arguments who get a hard time.
    I can see your point, although having a couple of Islamic friends and am not over-worried by Muslims as a whole. Suspicious yes but not fearful.
    A couple of points. Do you not think there are Christians as dangerous as some Islamics, they may not run around with AK47s and Semtex but look at their anctics, often violent, outside abortion clinics and their general attitude towards education, trying to strike evolution out of curricula and forcing RE on everyone.
    To be an open atheist in some American states is to invite prejudice and, at times, violence. My sister’s favourite get out phrase is “They are not real Christians”, I do not buy this and think it time that the “moderate” Christians stand up for the rights of all and against their evangelical/fundamentalist peers just as we expect the “moderate” Muslims to do in their situation.
    Finally, on a less serious note. I remember the Morecambe and Wise show from the 70s/80s and the final sketch was nearly always from their bedroom, both were in pyjamas and obviously sharing the same bed. I wonder what today’s fundies would make of that.

16. Darwin Harmless says:

    November 18, 2015 at 11:05 pm

    Author, brilliant observation as usual, with another rapier point punch line. i remain in awe of your work.

    Russ Smith, welcome to the C&B. My great grandfather was a circuit riding Methodist minister in pioneering Manitoba. I give him credit for my grandmother giving me a thrashing for taking pop bottles to the store for a refund on Sunday, a crime I was unaware was a crime but then ignorance of the Lord’s law is no excuse I suppose. I hope Methodists have mellowed out a bit since my grandmother’s day, but I’m afraid the designation holds no warm fuzzy associations for me. Still, i hope the clientele here treat you and your invisible overlord with courtesy and respect. Well, you at least. I wouldn’t hold out much hope for respect for your invisible magic friend.
    Cheers, mate. Have a virtual pint on me.

    I really feel sorry for the poor Syrian refugees who, while fleeing the horrors of ISIL, now must face the bigotry of the western backlash. I was delighted to hear one Muslim speaking out in no uncertain terms, using language that is totally appropriate if NSFW. https://www.facebook.com/TheBrizzler/videos/313288765548660

17. Darwin Harmless says:

    November 18, 2015 at 11:29 pm

    Stephen Mynett, “Do you not think there are Christians as dangerous as some Islamics” I can assure you that there are. I wish I could give you a URL for this, but I watched a Rachel Maddow show last night that included a “Freedom Rally” hosted by right wing(nut) Christians and attended by two Republican candidates for president. The main theme of the rally was that homosexuals are deserving of death and the government should round them up and execute them. Openly espoused. Loudly proclaimed with emotional rhetoric. Not a hint of a rebuke from the presidential candidates in attendance. Shocking and scary in the extreme.
    If you think there are no Christians ready and willing to do the Lord’s work and snuff a few gays, then I think perhaps you are not paying attention to what they are saying in America.

18. Stephen+Mynett says:

    November 18, 2015 at 11:51 pm

    DH, I am well aware of what the Fundies are up to all over the world, try reading my post again, as I was interested in what Russ had to say I decided to make a gentle, if somewhat sacastic, question to start him off. Listing those from the UK who went to Uganda to support the kill the gays bill, or the many extreme right wing nutjobs in the US was hardly likely to elicit much of a response.
    Finally, you quote me: “If you think there are no Christians ready and willing to do the Lord’s work and snuff a few gays, then I think perhaps you are not paying attention to what they are saying in America.” I repeat, read my post again or, even better, learn to read. Unfortunately Author has asked us not to tell people to fuck off as that would be my preferred option.
    Sorry Author, do not like causing hassle but will not let people like DH rip into me just because they cannot understand English. I will be on my way now, was only a lurker most of the time anyway.

19. white+squirrel says:

    November 19, 2015 at 1:13 am

    the muslim in DH’s video clearly gets it as far as other muslim migrants to France are concerned – but somehow he misses the crucial point that the attackers were not muslims aiming to migrate to France, but merely aiming at France. there was also the secondary aim that if the west is incited to close its borders to Syrian refugees, then they will be forced to remain in Syria and therby be more easily within the grasp of Daesh’s ‘recruitment’ groups

20. DocAtheist says:

    November 19, 2015 at 6:36 am

    My heart goes out to France, but it is ironic that “We are all Paris” should really be “We are all Israel”, as Israel has been subjected to such terrorist attacks and many other styles of terrorist attacks for generations. Israel has been and continues yet to be the Muslim extremists’ laboratory, where all manner of terrorism is tried out, to see what the mainstream media will write, how the UN and powerful nations will respond (if at all), and what Israel can and will do to deal with it. Muslim extremists appreciate how dispensible — nay, disposable — so much of the world still considers its Jewish population, particularly compared with, say, Americans, Spanish, and, yes, of course, Parisians.

21. Darwin Harmless says:

    November 19, 2015 at 7:15 am

    Hhhhmn. I just got a very nasty hate email from Stephen Mynett. Wow. I had no idea he would take what I wrote as anything more than friendly information.
    Hey, Stephen. Sorry my words rubbed you the wrong way. Please try to read what I wrote again as if it’s coming from a friend with a smile on his face. Honestly, your reaction was beyond unexpected. I certainly did not think I was “venting my spleen”.
    Those who know me here would tell you that I’m much more obvious when I vent my spleen.

22. Darwin Harmless says:

    November 19, 2015 at 7:24 am

    Stephen Mynett, there’s some cross posting happening here. I posted the last bit after reading your email but before reading what you had posted on this thread. Now I am seriously confused.
    So, let me try again. Whatever I said that offended you, I sincerely apologize for saying it. I very much regret implying that you are ignorant of the actions of radical Christians. My intention was to confirm your suggestion that they are indeed as dangerous as radical Islamics. Nothing more. No slight or put down intended.

23. Stephen Mynett says:

    November 19, 2015 at 7:25 am

    OK, accepted but I still find it hard to take a post like that as if it were from a smiling friend, nevertheless I will believe you, just but “friendly information” that is suggesting I know nothing of what is going on, would you like a link to the story of the nine year old girl who had polythene tied to her arm and ignited to get a witchcraft confession.
    Perhaps you should try to be a little less patronising with people you hardly know. Anyway, I stuck around a day just to see if you would reply, I’ll away now and leave you to enjoy yourself in the C&B without troublesome visitors.

24. Darwin Harmless says:

    November 19, 2015 at 7:27 am

    white squirrel, I think he was addressing those migrants in European countries that were rioting and killing people over the cartoons. They have already migrated into countries like Denmark, for the reasons he lists.

25. Stephen+Mynett says:

    November 19, 2015 at 7:39 am

    Apology gladly accepted, your second post dropped in while I was posting my response to your first, I would not have been as damning in it had I seen it before. Thanks for the apology.

26. JohnM says:

    November 19, 2015 at 10:46 am

    nemo81
    I’m guessing the Moslem countries you were in were not Middle Eastern ones. There, one would be unlikely to interact with any local females whatsoever. Though when I lived and taught in pre-Qadaffi Libya I had several of unveiled female students in my Organic Chemistry classes.

27. white+squirrel says:

    November 19, 2015 at 3:30 pm

    panel three -Mo have you ever checked islamic/Iranian cartoons about jews?
    but when was the last time you saw crowds of non-israeli jews burning flags and destroying arab embassies ?

28. white+squirrel says:

    November 19, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    DH indeed so – they migrate for better conditions and equality etc – then some of them push to change their new nation into a sharia state -eventually they will run out of better countries to migrate to because there will be none left which are not regressing socially and technologically – cant see it ever happening 100% – but some aim for that,

    and if they are not prevented they will suceed and not even the sane muslims want that.

    Mortgageing the future progress of humanity seems a high price just to be able to kills gays and enslave women to the home, which would still be too high a price even if it did enable social and technological progress.

29. Mendigo says:

    November 19, 2015 at 7:27 pm

    Thank you so much for your work.

    Greetings from Spain.

    Vive la liberté!

    P.S: By the way, if you want to have a Spanish version of J&M, I’d be proud of translate it. It’s the 2nd most spreaded language, and the 1st in cristianity. It would be interesting to translate into arab too… 😉

30. two cents' worth says:

    November 19, 2015 at 7:37 pm

    I’ve been reading various articles written since the ISIS attacks in Paris on Nov. 13th, and I came across one that I found very interesting. Scott Atran, an anthropologist who studies terrorism, says we are woefully unprepared to counter ISIS. One of his arguments is that people are inspired to join ISIS for the same reasons that people joined in past revolutions: ISIS has a “profoundly alluring moral mission to change and save the world.” Atran says that ISIS has an “adventurous and glorious message that can give significance to … people” and that ISIS recruits “join a ‘band of brothers (and sisters)’ ready to sacrifice for significance.” (For more on Atran’s thoughts about this, see http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/terrorism-religious-century-isis-faith-christianity-islam/ ).

    Human beings have a basic need for meaning and significance. Many people meet this need by working for a purpose that goes beyond their immediate self-interest. ISIS offers one such purpose.

    What “adventurous and glorious message” can we provide that can “give significance” to people and counter the message of ISIS? How about climate change? We need to find ways to mitigate it, to adapt to it, and to cope with its consequences. (For example, we’re finding it hard to handle the flood of migrants that are leaving Syria and other countries because conflict is making those places uninhabitable. How will we deal with the coming tsunami of migrants that will be leaving Bangladesh and other countries because climate change is making those places uninhabitable?)

    Climate change is a significant threat to humanity. Addressing climate change is not only a moral cause, but also a glorious cause—it will “change and save the world.” It will require many years of effort from many people around the world, doing work in many fields of knowledge and at many skill levels. There is work for everyone—scientists, engineers, diplomats, construction workers, farmers, and more. Those who are willing to sacrifice for the cause can be offered work that requires sacrifice. Those who long for adventure can be offered missions that require travelling to work with people in other countries, going to places that are almost inaccessible, or other activities that seem new and/or risky to them.

    Could proselytizing for C4 (Coalition Confronting Climate Change) both bolster the effort to deal with climate change and lessen the flow of recruits joining ISIS? If so, who needs to do what to get C4 going?

    An easier question: should the group have a different name? C4 could be seen as a reference to C4 carbon fixation, but it could also be seen as a reference to C-4 plastic explosive–off-putting to some, but perhaps attractive to revolutionary types. We could change the abbreviation to CCCC. . .

31. Jim+Baerg says:

    November 19, 2015 at 9:22 pm

    two cents worth:
    But how do we get people working on something that is actually beneficial rather than something they mistakenly think is beneficial?

    Climate change would be a much smaller problem if for the last few decades humanity had been replacing coal with nuclear for electricity generation. Part of the reason we haven’t done that is a multitude of well meaning people who have been mislead into thinking nuclear is bad.

    BTW see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Earth & check on where the guy who funded them got his money to see why I think the people who persuaded those multitudes were lying rather than honestly mistaken.

32. Art.25 says:

    November 19, 2015 at 9:23 pm

    Just saying that I moved my cartoon “Aya Hijab” to a separate blog : http://ayahijab.blogspot.be. Again my apologies for this blunt plug. It will be the last time, I promise !

33. wnanig says:

    November 20, 2015 at 8:34 pm

    @two cents’ worth

    I think there is a definite point to that. We should move massively to renewable energy – and get China, India as well as smaller countries on board with that. Green energy does not have to be implemented only large scale, so there are technological possibilities to do it wherever possible. Not only can it counteract climate change and the future need for millions of people to migrate, it might also make Middle Eastern governments more dependent on taxes from their people and thus more inclined to care how they are. It might also make oil less of a factor, which might decrease foreign interests in money and power in the region.

    How about “4C” instead (pronounced “foresee” :-))?

    But short term you probably need to get at the “angry young men” some other way. It is not an immediate enough cause. To diminish the recruitment base you first need to get at the “Don’t even think about questioning that this book is the eternal truth, or you will burn in hell for all eternity”. That one point is sort of the one that all the other bad verses hinge on, isn’t it? Actually reading those verses suddenly made me understand the Satanic Verses controversy a whole lot better.

    Pride seems to be a huge factor. I noted a business man commenting somewhere “People in the Middle East are extremely sensitive to anything that suggests they are behind technologically”. I remember others saying the number one priority in the area is not losing face. And every time people are asking Muslim communities to speak out against violence, there are comments like “Why should we have to apologise”, “btw, I apologise for coffee and Arabic architecture too”. So here is my question – which other parts of Arabic culture could be emphasised and become important for sub-cultures? What could the (non-religious) Arabic equivalent of the Hollywood hero fighting against evil be?

    I noted that the news reported Saudi Arabia referring to the events in Paris as “an attack on all religions”, whereas the Western leaders were talking of an attack on humanity. The premises really are different, aren’t they? Human rights is not a premise, the honour of God and the prophet is. That may be the reason discussions about hate speech, political correctness etc. get so difficult. You almost have to use modal logic and discuss different worlds to define things properly… truth values are just not the same.

    By the way – the mentioned Orwell review of Mein Kampf is very interesting (https://boingboing.net/2014/08/17/orwells-review-of-mein-kampf.html). And yes, consumism is utterly failing in the department of providing meaning. We need to start discussing philosophy again. Shopping is just not a sufficient substitute. And the social darwinism caused by excessive competition certainly is not. If anything it just makes you more suicidal. Jihadists are actually not the only ones committing suicide in violent ways these days.

    The support for freedom of speech after the Charlie Hebdo attacks is the first thing in years that comes close to a cause worth fighting for. Muslim commenters on Al Jazeera recognised it – “We have Mohammed, you have freedom of speech”. It may well have been the first thing about our culture that made sense to them. I believe a French philosopher referred to the attacks as a “moral Pearl Harbor”. Unlike the symbolism of 9/11 (places representing economic, military and political power) the Charlie Hebdo one attacked something more deeply ideological (possibly unintentionally). The enlightenment seems to be one of the few things in history that has actually changed anything much. Like someone said – humanism is actually one of the most subversive ideologies since it puts the individual first. The ideals of the French revolution on a global level in combination with saving the planet and humanity from destroying our own living environment may actually be one of the best substitutes to offer, but it would require questioning both religious dogma and consumism at the same time, and there are likely quite a few power structures all over the world that will resist that vigorously. That in itself might however provide enough of a challenge and a cause to unite young, rebellious people all over the world.

34. white+squirrel says:

    November 21, 2015 at 12:07 am

    (Coalition Confronting Climate Pollution might work too
    lol

35. Darwin Harmless says:

    November 21, 2015 at 1:22 am

    Two Cents Worth, I think Scott Atran has nailed it. It’s the same message that Pinker had in his “The Better Angels of Our Nature – to make people do horrific acts and build up a good death count takes an ideology that offers a vision of a perfect future. Communism offered this, hence the death counts of Mao and Stalin. Christianity has offered this at times, hence the crusades and inquisition. Now ISIL if offering the Caliphate as the perfect future, worth killing any number of non-believers to achieve.

    My problem with trying to ideologize fighting climate change and recruit armies of young people is that it offers no vision of perfection. It just offers keeping the world as it is, the status quo. It lacks sex appeal. Where are the guns? Where are the heroic battles? Where is the blood? Where is the glory?

    I think what I am saying is that we need an ideology, not a goal. I think about the old Wobblies, the Workers of the World Unite folks. They failed coming against the forces of fascism and capitalism, But they had the right idea.

    We need a “We Are All Africans” movement based on modern science. One world, one people. We can’t go to war because we’d be killing our mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles. Young Muslim, you can join ISIL and make the world a hell on earth, or you can join us and create a world of peace, prosperity, tolerance and love.

    And the first time some sociopathic monster leadership candidate announces that we need to kill people to achieve our goals, that’s when we recognize that person as an infiltrator from the dark side.

    We already have a few martyrs. Gandhi. MLK. John Lennon. (Not sure about Jesus Christ, with so much harm done in his name.) No doubt the forces of evil will be happy to make some more for us. But this is the organization we need.

    Now. What should we call ourselves? How do we get this ball rolling?

36. Darwin Harmless says:

    November 21, 2015 at 1:25 am

    Quote of the day, attributed to a U.S. intelligence officer: “Drone strikes create terrorists faster than we can kill them.” Think on that, folks. We need a new approach.

37. doubty doubts says:

    November 21, 2015 at 8:01 am

    Get real, beheading someone or shooting scores of innocent bystanders takes a lot more than a search for significance and meaning in life. Quite simply, it requires a great deal of insanity. I could see how someone could voluntarily join an army and fight a war, even for the sake of climate (like subduing a contaminating state) but not on these terms; this is no army and no war. It’s madness from a bunch of psychos recruited by some very smart fellas selling oil in the black market. So there are two problems: bad mental health policies, and the black market. Neither is new.

38. Art.25 says:

    November 21, 2015 at 12:59 pm

    Darwin, you are SO right, and we have to start that movement now ! We also need to market and promote that ideology. A good start would be to post pictures and stories that show solidarity between people, even in the most atrocious circumstances. E.g. the anonymous rescuer of the pregnant woman hanging outside the 1st floor window of the Bataclan in Paris. Heroism always appeals !

39. white+squirrel says:

    November 21, 2015 at 2:28 pm

    DH has the right idea except
    Young Muslim, you can join ISIL and make the world a hell on earth, or you can join us and create a world of peace, prosperity, tolerance and love.
    As I understand about the psyche of ISIL- they WANT hell on earth because the goal is to bring on ‘god’s apocalypse’ and with the help of similar minded xians in USA they will succeed in bringing hell on earth to those parts they have access to

40. wnanig says:

    November 21, 2015 at 4:11 pm

    Tried to answer two cents’ worth yesterday, but it didn’t get through, so I have to ask – is my political correctness meter in serious need of re-calibration or is there a virtual goblin in your database feeding on comments? Just let me know, I’ll leave.

41. RJC says:

    November 21, 2015 at 9:37 pm

    I wish people in English speaking countries would stop calling these terrorists IS or ISIL or Islamic State, the last one in particuliar as it lends an air of legittimacy to them, and start using the name “Daech”. This is commonly used here in France and is detested by these terrorists as it is apparently how one would say IS in arabic but sounds very like the arabic word for FILTH. Which just about sums up my argument in favor of using this name. Do not let them give themselves airs, call them what they are – filth!

42. Aya Hijab Cartoon says:

    November 24, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    Changed my name from Art.25 to Aya Hijab Cartoon, to help promote my cartoon blog website. Today the 10th cartoon is up !

43. Author says:

    November 24, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    Sorry wnanig. Your comments got filtered into the spam folder and I only just spotted them.

44. white+squirrel says:

    November 25, 2015 at 12:01 am

    That daesh dislike being called by that name is sufficient reason in itself to call them that