It’s an attractive combo.

If you’re not familiar with the story, here it is.

Discussion (52)¬

  1. Troubleshooter says:

    Is it me, or is Mo reacting to this situation rather … “Batley?!?” [smirk!]

  2. Jesus F Iscariot says:

    SO…Muhammad would be pleased. Islamoterrorism succeeds brilliantly. Judging from this student comment, militant Islam works!:
    “Some cry, some rage, some mourn silently for losing such a great teacher. It’s a hard pill to swallow. We all know deep down that BGS will NEVER be the same again.”
    Snowflakes would say JF Iscariot is being Islamophobic.

  3. Someone says:

    “””headteacher of the school, Gary Kibble, “apologised unequivocally” on the school’s behalf for the use of the “totally inappropriate” image during a religious studies lesson.”””

    Aside from the obvious hanging nut picture (way back, and debatable) what image of Mo would have been ‘totally inapropriate’? What picture did they use? This again just reinforces why we need to prevent religious institutions from influencing the state.

  4. E.A. Blair says:

    Oh, my! A Jesus and Mo cartoon with a capitalized title! Is the world ready for this?

  5. Sigh says:

    This is why we need to keep religions from influencing what happens in our secular schools.

    “””The director of the Peace Institute [Imam Mohammed Amin Pandor] then made his own statement at the gates of the school during which he [disapproved]* the use of the images as “totally unacceptable”.”””

    We need to hear less of “It is important for children to learn about faiths and beliefs, but this must be done in a respectful, sensitive way.” Instead why can’t we hear, “what these religious groups need to realize, is that they have no say over how people who are not members of their congregation conduct themselves.”

    Oh wait, the head of the, “Peace Institute,” made demands and then demeaned the response of the school at its front gate.

    *The news source is also guilty of adding inflammatory rhetoric, as I am sure I am too. The Imam’s words all sound initially like a resonable stance, but carry an ominous overtone of culturally implied consequences. What I can’t find is any words from the Imam promising that the teacher’s life isn’t in danger.

  6. M27Holts says:

    Remove the pointless religion education from the school and replace it with math, science or useful skills like hanging doors, wallpaper or bricklaying or basic home electrics….simple solution me thinks…

  7. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: Religion, in all its infinite variety, would then be taught only in Churches, Chapels, Gospel Halls, Mosques, Gurdwaras, Temples, Synagogues, etc, and each child would grow up believing that his/hers is the only true faith. What we really need is education about religion so that children can learn that all religions are a load of old twaddle, and life is far better without them.

  8. Chiefy says:

    This won’t do. I can’t find a link to an image of the cartoon at question. How am I to know if it is “totally inappropriate”? Can anyone help me out here?

  9. Laripu says:

    Under no circumstances should the teacher be fearing for his safety. Anyone making threats should be arrested, booked, and tried for that.

    I don’t know enough about this school to form a serious opinion, but there are a couple of stuations about which I can say something.

    If this was a school that is funded by a government at any level, then it is responsible to the people who elect that government. That includes Muslims, so it would be a good idea not to give offense in that way. If there were Muslim children in the class, then the teacher’s penalty should be a discussion with the principal, and an apology to the Muslims in that community. Not grovelling, not dismissal, and not death.

    If it was a privately funded school with tuition, then the school and the parents each have a choice: – if the parents don’t like how their children are being educated, they can enroll them elsewhere, and if the school doesn’t want to risk losing tuition then they can apologize and even offer to dismiss the teacher.

    I would like to know whether there were any Muslim students in the class. If not, then there was no-one to offend. If there were no Muslim students, then the whole drama was about harassing non-Muslims into following Muslim religious rules.

    That seems to really be the case in general. It seems to me that a segment of the Muslim community wants to make non-Muslims follow Muslim religious rules.

    I won’t. I don’t even follow the Jewish religious rules that were forced on me by my mother until I rebelled at age 13. (My father was an atheist.)

    Hey look, it’s Mohamed… Mohamed Dylan, the famed singer of “Simple Twist of Fatwa”. He seems to be naked.

  10. Donn says:

    Chiefy, I’d get you that cartoon, but I don’t want to die Sorry!

    I assume that the protesters are similarly lacking any direct knowledge of the cartoon, for the same reason.

  11. Someone says:

    One of the sources said it was a charlie hebdo image.
    The source is currently the top link if you google
    “batley hebdo”

    Having reviewed the hebdo images from other sources, it’s anyones guess which one was shown, but frankly some of them are no more hostile to Islam than Abraham’s other two religions. Others are more targetted. Regardless though, none of them were worthy of causing a loss of life, and even some of the Imams who instigated the global riots in 2015 have recanted their positions.

    Evidently it was included in the curriculum as part of the discussion weighing freedom of speech vs religious tolerance. It also has been in the course material for a few years. The students are speaking out and saying the teacher is not a racist.

    If the islamic community wants the rest of us to stop viewing them all as violent overly sensitive, perhaps they should start distancing themselves vocally from those elements that start chanting for jobs and heads to roll following the slightest perceived affront.

    Plenty of christians and jewish sects in the western world will out specific members and groups who are being too extreme.

  12. Someone says:

    What would be great would be for someone to release the course package so the public can view and evaluate the material themselves, but also for the school board to stand by their teacher, and the previously approved course material.

    It would also be great to see a pig fly.

  13. Someone says:

    A bit difficult to avoid the label of Islamophobia when Islam itself trades, exploits and feeds upon fear. The fear of their vengeful god, their vengeful warriors (or nowadays, extremists), their systems in place to make human lives insignificant and expendable so long as the will of Allah via Mohammed reigns.
    Many religions are governed by fear, stemming from the unknown and the natural instinct to be scared of dying, but Islam has made it an art form to be irrationally afraid and thus angry about the slightest transgression. For if everyone is equally oppressed and nobody questions the ruling power they dread, then there is peace. No wonder so many dictators practice the religion.

  14. Jon Pierson says:

    In fairness, it’s only the Sunnis who who get pissed off at the pictures. It’s funny, really, because the majority Christian church – Roman Catholicism- revels in pictures, statues, bits of saints, shrouds, splinters of a cross, etc., etc., etc., whilst the Protestant churches think they’re worshipping graven images. In Islam, the majority sect is against representations whilst the minorities have no problem with it. Sects, sects, sects, that’s all these religious people think about.

  15. doug says:

    It’s stuff like this that makes me want to turn one of the wheels of my bicycle into a printing press of sorts so I can leave little ink images of Mohamed on the roads and pathways everywhere I go.

    It just baffles me that a deity or its emissary can be so extremely fragile that a mere two-dimensional representation of it seems to be regarded as likely to take away its powers or destroy it. But I’m also baffled that an omnimax deity seems to be completely inaccessible unless one of its priest class holds congress in a designated building, putting the communicants at risk of a potentially fatal communicable disease. There really seems to be a need for a better class of deity.

  16. Donn says:

    Exactly. may I present, for your worshipping pleasure: The Sun.

    – Readily available for direct access most anywhere on the planet, except poles during winter.

    – Some antimicrobial effect.

    – Source and cause of all life and everything we know.

    – Who knows what she’s thinking? You think she’s just a big blob? Take it from me – on faith, that’s how it has to work – she loves you. She only gives you sunburns because it’s part of her plan for us.

  17. M27Holts says:

    A lot of peoples worshipped the ball of hydrogen/helium and still do. Most of the man made religions have appropriated sun worshipping festivals. Its 2021 for fucks sake. All this bother over a bit of ink on paper. Get some ale and Melton Mowbray pork pie down your gregories…especially tomorrow and really piss their sky faerie off….

  18. suffolk blue says:

    *Jon Pierson*

    Sects & Dread & Heads Will Roll is all my Goddy needs

  19. jb says:

    Enoch Powell may not have been right about actual rivers of blood, but I think it’s time for reasonable people to acknowledge that he was right to think that allowing mass immigration into Britain was a bad idea. But hey, it was important for Britain’s leaders to display their moral rectitude, and demonstrate to the world that they weren’t evil bigots like Hitler. What could possibly be more important than that!

  20. Donn says:

    Yes! Had Britain only been able to control its borders back in the 5th and 6th centuries …

  21. DiscoveredJoys says:

    When I was a lad (only black and white TV) the Roman Catholic schoolboys (yes, it was a boys’ grammar school) would troop out of assembly before the hymns and prayers started. Similarly they would slope off to the library when the lesson was ‘Divinity’ (the antique version of RI). I don’t think they were the worse for it. Perhaps this could be extended to Muslims?

    Plus, of course, there is the often overlooked distinction between deliberately giving offence and deliberately taking offence. The wider society should not be constrained by a few zealots.

  22. jb says:

    Donn — You do realize don’t you that the Britons back in the 5th and 6th centuries actually would have been a whole lot better off if they had been able to control their borders?

  23. Donn says:

    Oh yes – it’s a serious lament. I don’t buy the notion that if our ancestry doesn’t go back to people living on this land since the beginning of time, then we must agree to share it with any and all. What’s too late to be fixed is too late, but for me the present occupants have the right to keep all out if they like.

    But particularly I wish the Celts had been able to hold more of a spot for themselves, and while we’re wishing, same for the Neanderthals, not that I’m making any connection there.

  24. Son of Glenner says:

    Donn: If it’s any comfort, unless you are of pure black african descent, uncontaminated by sneaky white ancestry, then you are part neanderthal yourself.

    And so am I – and proud of it!

  25. Dr John the Wipper says:

    unless you are of pure black african descent,
    make that WEST-African.
    South- and East-Africans are also to some degree (albeit less than Caucasian or Asiatic) extent Neandertalic. Denisovan is another story again….

  26. M27Holts says:

    I am what I am. I cannot be anything else and nor can anybody else….tho my substance is refreshed so I am not what I was once….

  27. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: “refreshed”? No doubt by a few pints of Holts finest Mancunian cask ales!

  28. M27Holts says:

    I have been drinking hobgoblin. Oxford beer. Witney I believe…

  29. Someone says:

    Recent studies are showing that those previous estimates on interbreeding may have been too conservative. Google for
    “Modern Humans May Have More Neanderthal DNA Than Previously Thought” in smithonian magazine for a start. They’re estimating 0.5% neanderthal dna in modern africans. The article didn’t discuss denisovans much. But the ideas is that sapiens may have migrated out and back a few times, bringing back dna with them.

  30. Son of Glenner says:

    Nice to think that when sapiens came into contact with neanderthals, they made love not war. But I have a horrible feeling that some rape could have been involved.

  31. M27Holts says:

    I thought Neandethals were physically larger than sapiens? Bit like Syd Little trying to rape Fatima Whitbread without Rohipnol….

  32. Dr John the Wipper says:

    when sapiens came into contact with neanderthals

    Eh, BOTH races are Homo Sapiens.
    Respectivily, Homo Sapiens sapiens and Homo Sapiens neanderthalis.

    There is some discussion if they are subspecies, or just races.

  33. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: If rape was involved, the neanderthal must have been the rapist, for his DNA to enter the sapiens genome. Of course, rape (and consensual sex) could have occurred in both directions, but any sapiens DNA in the neanderthal genome would become exinct along with the neanderthals themselves!

    Both human variants were around the same size, but the neanderthals were more stocky in build.

    Dr John the Wipper: Of course you are correct – Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. I was using the subspecies/racial terms loosely.

    Of course, as in any taxonomy, the terms, and even the concepts, are always subject to revision in the light of research and new evidence.

  34. Dr John the Wipper says:

    the neanderthal must have been the rapist, for his DNA to enter the sapiens genome

    Not so.

    The offspring in both cases would be a 50-50 mix. Any mating thereof (consensual or not) with a sapiens would lead to 25-75 etc.
    To lead to the present approx 4-5 % neandertal genome in caucasians it must not have been a very infrequent event.

    PS the official spelling is Neandertal; without the “h” in tal.
    German spelling reform in 1901 a.o. lost the “h” from Thal; and also from constructs containing it. I crossed the Neander river (well, brook rather) several times, and the Germans are proud to label every bridge.

  35. Son of Glenner says:

    Dr John the Wipper: I was not aware of that German spelling reform, although I knew that “thal” was pronounced as “tal”.

    Thank you – or should that be tank you! Vielen dank/Biedankt anyway.

    My point was that whichever way round any mating, consensual or otherwise, was, the new DNA would have to get into a female sooner or later in order to be transmitted down the generations. Your point about it not being a very infrequent event depends to some extent on the total size of the (sapiens) population at the time of cross-breeding. In a very small population, a single event could have a very large and long-lasting effect.

    By the way – does the river Neander – meander?

  36. Son of Glenner says:

    Donn: I bet you’re now wishing you had never mentioned the neanderthals/neandertals in the first place!

  37. Donn says:

    Not at all, I take a keen interest in such matters.

    1. Spelling reforms in the German language do not apply to English, and Neanderthal is an English word albeit obviously of German origin. Correct spelling in English is with “th”.

    2. Taxonomy is a game that is never really finished. I used to embrace taxonomic nomenclature as a more reliable alternative to English names, but as I get older and see that nomenclature shift under me as the games go on, that gets a little muddier than it was. Homo neanderthalensis is in very common usage. Depending on what authority you recognize, H. sapiens neanderthalensis might be more correct … but there’s no saying what they’re thinking today back in the taxonomist workshop, and in any case it’s the most useless fine point.

    3. It looks to me like the disagreement over which way Neanderthal DNA would get into Sapiens genome, may rest on some assumptions about where the offspring go. If offspring stay with their mother and their mother stays with her species, then our Neanderthal DNA could come only from males. But that assumption doesn’t have any really strong basis, without more knowledge than we’ll ever have about how the two species interacted. Particularly if the cross tended to be robust in the first generation, some Sapiens groups may have seen some value in taking female prisoners, for example.

    I should also mention that for a while there was an idea floating around that our Neanderthal heritage comes out in autism, which for them was a high functioning variant that principally affected males, who would go forth and impress the young ladies in distant social groups with their Neanderthal nerdity. I’m afraid I can’t really make this make sense, but that’s how I remember it.

  38. Dr John the Wipper says:

    Spelling reforms in the German language do not apply to English, and Neanderthal is an English word albeit obviously of German origin. Correct spelling in English is with “th”.

    Certainly not claiming authority here, as both German and English are foreign languages for me, but several years ago this discussion ran for some months in Scientific American. A consensus was reached that at least in scientific literature the formal German spelling would be used henceforward.

    To complicate the matter, the Latin versions of the naming stayed unchanged.
    So, Neandertals are Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis.

  39. Donn says:

    That’s certainly their option, in which case it’s essentially like re-introducing the word from German. I’m probably on the conservative end of such matters, due to a childhood trauma in the 3rd Grade, where one day my spelling test was marked incorrect on “axe”, because the lesson had taught that word as “ax”. Rebellion against stylistic reforms began on that day. To me, those scientists went off and did something a bit silly, but perhaps they had good reasons that aren’t blown to bits by the existence of a substantial body of English language texts that use the old spelling.

  40. Dr John the Wipper says:

    Let us agree that I am biased be the fact that my interest in English reading (avoiding the term Literature here) is more focused on scientific texts.

  41. Son of Glenner says:

    Dr John the Wipper: Since we are being pedantic (and why not?), the international rules of taxonomic nomenclature are: capital initial letter for genus, no capitalisation for species, sub-species, races, etc. So: Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. In abbreviated form, H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalensis. In print the whole name should be in italics; in handwriting or old-fashioned typewriter, the italics are indicated by underlining. I’m afraid I don’t know how to do either italics or underlining in this comment box!

    Donn: If you live in the USA, you have to learn to spell incorrectly, just like other americans!

  42. Dr John the Wipper says:

    italics: anglebracketopen i anglebracketclose; ending: anglebracketopen slash i anglebracketclose
    bold:replace i with b
    underline: replace i with u

  43. Donn says:

    As in <i>neanderthalensis</i>. (I thought to use a <code> tag to do that, but it doesn’t seem to be working so I had to improvise.)

    I admit I practiced Canadian spelling with words like “colour”, for a while, but I quit that nonsense as an adult.

  44. M27Holts says:

    Colour is English English…so is Armour…and lets get it right We walk on fookin pavements and not a sidewalk. Plus a fanny is not an arse..and don’t get me started on mass produced yank beer….it’s like australian lager…it’s refreshing ice cold because it has no flavour to release when served at warmer temperatures….

  45. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: In general, I go along with your remarks, “color” always twists my tail, but I have to admit some americanisms make sense. “Sidewalk” makes more sense than “pavement” and “crosswalk” makes more sense than “zebra crossing”!

    Believe it or not, some good beer is made in the USA, eg some IPAs, but the volumes are tiny compared to the mass produced stuff you mention. And the yanks make an important contribution to the production of Scotch whisky! They use their Bourbon barrels only once, then the scottish distillers buy them and reuse them two or three times. If Jack Daniels and his pals used their barrels more than once, they might be able to make bourbon at least half as good as Scotch, although of course never equal to Scotch!

  46. Son of Glenner says:

    Funny how our erudite discussion about neanderthals led on to comments about the people who live in the USA!

  47. Donn says:

    Our spelling took on an improved standard at a time when Johnson’s dictionary was outdated but still influential. Had the English come up with something better sooner, I’m sure we’d have gotten right on board; I’m not surprised the English couldn’t follow us, apparently still somewhat stuck on Norman French as they were when they ran away from Chaucer’s more rational beginning. If it’s any help, maybe we can agree to stay with “catalogue” (not “catalog”.)

    The brewery in my neighborhood puts out ca. 250,000 barrels a year. Just to put “tiny” volumes in perspective. I’m in the Pacific Northwest, where I believe IPA is particularly popular, and it tends to be quite a hearty brew, like averaging 6 or 7% ABV and with body to match.

    There are of course some who drink Scotch whisky, including if we might some local spirits along the same lines that are quite good, but like I think many of my countrymen I have never really acquired a taste for it. I rather lean towards the hearty flavor of American rye whiskey, though that’s still a minority view.

  48. Dr John the Wipper says:

    don’t get me started on mass produced yank beer

    Don’t get you started? Don’t get ME started!

    Back in 1999 I was in a convention in San Diego.

    Our return flight left us with a day so waste for ourselves, so my colleague and me went to Sea World, where we were invited to a beer clinic. No surprise, there were also some Swedish and German guys we knew from said convention.
    The Budweiser host was very proud of his beer, and, not surprisingly, he met some contradiction from us Europeans.
    He was especially very proud of the Very Long tradition of Budweiser Brewing, over 175 years!
    Telling him that such would be called a recent beer in Europe started some bragging brawl. He refused to believe Europe had brewery existing for longer than twice the time since Columbus sailed across the Atlantic (Weihenstephaner, est. 1040). Together we were able to name more than a dozen breweries from before 1492. Naming Budweiser as a European beer led to the claim that the Czech unlawfully claimed first rights to the name led to a little history lesson.
    Way back in 1295 Europe was vastly differently organised. In current Budovice the language was mainly proto-German, and the town name was Budweis.In 1295 the monastery was granted brewer rights. In German, the adjective for “from Budweis” was and is “Budweiser”. The Bier (beer is a Anglo-Saxon expression for a bier-like beverage) was exported widely, and simply named for the convent’s brewery: Budweiser. So much for anciennity!

    An interesting experiment with embarrassing results happened some later.
    We got to taste the effects of beer freshness and aging effects.
    Of course the fresher the beer the better…
    The yanks agreed, but ALL Europeans preferred the riper, and the overripe.

  49. Son of Glenner says:

    Dr John the Wipper: I believe that the genuine, ie Czech, Budweiser, is now branded “Budvar”, which I guess may be a straight Czech language translation meaning the same as “Budweiser”. “Budvar” is available in the UK. (So is “Budweiser”, but not worth the bother of looking for it!)

    I believe that the USA origin transnational corporation, McDonald’s, once took legal action against a Scottish shopkeeper who called his shop “McDonald’s”, as his name was McDonald and he came from a long line of shopkeepers called McDonald. More arrogant self-righteousness? I don’t think the corporation won their case – I certainly hope not!

  50. M27Holts says:

    If a beer has to be served ice-cold. Then that tells me it will taste like piss when it is warmed up. I get the culture of ice cold beer when sitting in 40 degree heat in spain or greece…but I have aquired the taste for strong tasting and strong smelling beer. Holts smells like sick if it’s been kept properly…..hmmm

  51. Donn says:

    Typical serving temperature over here is ca. 50°F for the bulk of types, a bit colder for lagers and similar. I don’t know that as a rule we look for stinky beer, though there’ll certainly be some hop fragrance.

    The thing I don’t like is that everything is too heavily carbonated. Not saying anything about how it got that way, I’m completely ignorant about that, this is just about what happens while trying to drink it. If I have a utensil handy, I sometimes stir the ale to discharge some of the CO2; when pouring, I do so from a foot or so above the glass. Tastes better to me without so much fizz.

  52. Dr John the Wipper says:

    Typical serving temperature over here is ca. 50°F for the bulk of types, a bit colder for lagers and similar.

    Personally I like to TASTE my bier, and drinking cold for me is just killing taste.

    My preferred drinking temp is room temp, or only slightly below.
    Even for pilsener I prefer over 10 °C, some more for Weizen; but tripel and such I prefer at 18 – 20.
    But maybe I developed such preferences because my stomach gets upset by too much cold…

    And do not try to fool me with ° F; if you want to use crooked or outdated temp scales them go Reamur, or even Newton. The only acceptable alternative (even preferred if arithmatic is part of the game) is Kelvin (which is without the ° symbol)


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