I haven’t looked thru the archive (ain’t nobody got time for that, as they say) in case you’ve already explained this, but why is Mo drinking beer? Or does Jesus change it to water for him first?
There most certainly have been people who would have done evil things if it weren’t for the fear of an “invisible friend” watching over their shoulder. It’s a mistake to say that nothing good ever comes of religion — too many people have credited it with turning around their lives. Of course this has nothing to do with whether any religion it true or not: if someone simply believes it’s true that in itself can have a big impact.
The question of why most (but not all) people prefer good, even in cultures that don’t believe in a punitive god, is actually pretty interesting, and the proposed explanations are not unsophisticated at all.
“If it takes the threat of hell to make you a moral person, then you are not at all moral, you are just a coward who responds well to threats.”
— Leo Wolf
And of course Jebus forgives even a merciless child killer as long as he repents. Give me the man (like me) who hasn’t done anything seriously criminal…against the mass murderer who suddenly says sorry so save his cowardly arse. Sure, I have inflicted violence on people, but in every case it was in self defence or defence of people more vunerable than I, but those who kill for lust, game or fun….I would put down, like the mad dogs they are…
🎶 You can be a killer
And eat your victims too.
No matter what your sin is
He’ll turn a cheek for you.
Save a million people
With a cure for a disease
Won’t get you through the pearly gates
Unless you’re on your knees. 🎶
I’m skeptical about this proposition – a significant number of people avoid evil out of fear of a judgemental deity.
1. Like, if they lose faith in existence of that deity, and have no inherent compunction about doing evil, then we’d notice this a lot. People do lose faith.
2. For people like that, the question would then be, for every judgement, what action does the deity prescribe?
2.a. Can’t find anything on the subject? Anything goes. We’d notice a lot of people with this problem.
2.b. As such people are clearly sociopaths of some kind, how likely is it that they will find the deity prescribing actions that are in fact evil? We’d notice this too.
Every normal person develops a sense of right and wrong. They don’t care if the bible says not to eat shrimp. They may feel a deity looking over their shoulder and judging them, but that delusion doesn’t add any moral instruction.
Although (like many people here) I am an atheist I recognize that my beliefs, attitudes and behaviors are to a large extent the product of the Judeo-Christian culture I was raised in. My attitudes regarding things such as the primacy of the individual and freedom of choice and conscience are examples of the beliefs I hold that were shaped by Judeo-Christian ideas that are not necessarily held by other cultures. Ironically I seem to be the product of a religion and deity I don’t believe in.
I wish I knew more about Bosnia. I just recently learned that it isn’t entirely Muslim, but rather a confederation or something of a Bosnian and a Serbian state, presumably Muslim and Christian respectively. Populations that go back centuries.
Think they differ the way England and Pakistan differ, since they adhere to different religions? With respect to primacy of the individual, etc.? Or is Republika Srpska equally or more barbaric than the Bosnia-Herzegovina Muslim state?
Religion probably does make a little difference, if it’s consistently drummed into people for few centuries. It stabilizes cultural traits by providing a structure for control. But it’s the source of nothing much. The goat herders that blessed us with Jehovah weren’t likely of like mind with the Greeks, and we owe more to the latter than the former.
The religious control over what this or that object or action your god (reputably) has forbidden is the thin edge of the slope that leads toss-pilchards to then end up killing people who (rightly) say their god is a useless fictional windbag…
Everyone had sex slaves and infanticide. For entertainment, read Moses’ take on how to deal Midian captives, Numbers 31.
Of course, Hammurabi didn’t invent justice in a world of random savagery, it’s just the first written evidence we’ve been able to dig up. Fundamental notions about the individual etc., are very closely tied to culture, and not only when there are written records of it. The particular flavor that’s characteristic of the English speaking world, is presumably an amalgam of Anglo-saxon and Norse attitudes, with some Celts in the background and some Norman French on top.
Thats the point. The three main religions are all based on wholly fictional texts. That originate from times where the apex preditor did what it does best…kill indescriminately…a good basis for invalidating and ridiculing the knob cheeses who are too stupid to think for themselves…
Bvereshagen says: @ Thank you for your reasonable post. I will ask you to only believe in clear evidence. Firstly you are alive so clear evidence shows you had ancestors thousand of years ago who loved and protected their young and those weaker than themselves.
These are, therefore, Human instincts, they have nothing to do with Christianity which arrived thousands of years later.
So – clear evidence shows that what is claimed as ‘Christian Value’ is, in fact, ‘Human value’ that has been usurped by religion for it’s own propaganda. Note the evidence that all known religions make the claim that without them, there is no moral code. But the clear evidence shows us that human decency and honesty existed long before religion claimed them for themselves.
Well … cultures vary a lot, and some reasonably successful ones have operated by significantly different standards than ours. My view on this is that our “values” are not only not inherent in humanity, they aren’t even universal in the established Christian realm.
But same difference. If you accept more basic criteria for moral probity, then the benighted heathens are sure to meet the standard; if you get much more specific, many Christian societies won’t clear the bar.
Because God doesn’t really tell you how to live your life from moment to moment, any more than the municipal legislative code. That’s society’s work.
Plenty of animals, notably elephants, show care and concern for their neighbours, share responsibility for their young and mourn their dead in clear displays of empathy. There is obviously a book somewhere yet to be found which gives them guidance from an elephant in the clouds who provides instructions on how to behave.
Maybe it’s Dumbo!
Fine, but that wasn’t the proposition. bvereshagen:
primacy of the individual and freedom of choice and conscience are examples
I expect there would be more examples, of particular societal attitudes towards the role of the individual, vs. one’s social group, vs. outsiders, and various ethical stances. I don’t agree with him that he or anyone got that kind of thing from a Judaeo-Christian heritage, but we’re certainly talking about more than the common denominator among humans and elephants.
Mr Cave, I feel that you lean into the Religious apologist camp far too much. Human morality is forgotten given the right circumstances. The good film “Straw dogs” shows us how a highly intelligent mathematician turns to savage violence when the circumstaces require it…Religion and Society is on a very slim knife edge is it not?
No, it’s more than just that common denominator but the evolution that brought that about predates any Judeo- Xtian influence by millennia until, as Ferlinghetti says, ‘Some time during eternity some guy shows up, claiming that the cat who really laid it on us is his dad’.
Nature/nurture arguments rarely find a convincing conclusion but I reckon the idea that it’s a good idea to get on well with the bloke in the next cave (part in some form of all religions) forms an instinctive base for most ‘moral’ behaviour – in people and elephants.
To suggest that religions based on paternalism, commandments, congregations, clergy, ‘flocks’ and ‘sheep’ encourages ‘the primacy of the individual’ seems to be a real contradiction.
Real individualism requiring escape from the brainwashing of religion seems to be displayed more in these pages than anywhere that the influence of the Judeo-Xtian persists.
Right, the priests are always happy to take credit for anything, be it a good harvest or the docile nature of the peons.
What really deserves that credit for a specific social structure, though, of course has to be specific to the origins of that structure. If we want to celebrate the difference between northern European culture, vs. some other that we come into contact with, we can’t very well chalk it up to the survival skills of the prehistoric ancestors of all of us.
A sort of amateur analysis that focuses more on the other guy, but does try to dig into values, that some of you may have already read: The World’s Most Toxic Value System. He doesn’t give religion any credit for northern Europe’s style – and he doesn’t blame Islam for making the Middle East what it is.
A quote I read a long time ago (I have no idea who said it) makes a lot of sense to me.
“Without religion, good people would be doing good things and bad people would be doing bad things. But to make good people do bad things you need religion.”
Choirboy. The Elephant analogy is a good one. Bit since, homo sapiens is the only species with reasonably permanent written communication skills it is the only species benighted with religious rottery…however the Elephant in the room is SEX! I think all cult creating crooks do so to get access to.as many sexual partners as is possible and spread their genes….
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I don’t trust anybody who only wouldn’t kill somebody because their invisible friend was watching?
I haven’t looked thru the archive (ain’t nobody got time for that, as they say) in case you’ve already explained this, but why is Mo drinking beer? Or does Jesus change it to water for him first?
There most certainly have been people who would have done evil things if it weren’t for the fear of an “invisible friend” watching over their shoulder. It’s a mistake to say that nothing good ever comes of religion — too many people have credited it with turning around their lives. Of course this has nothing to do with whether any religion it true or not: if someone simply believes it’s true that in itself can have a big impact.
The question of why most (but not all) people prefer good, even in cultures that don’t believe in a punitive god, is actually pretty interesting, and the proposed explanations are not unsophisticated at all.
“If it takes the threat of hell to make you a moral person, then you are not at all moral, you are just a coward who responds well to threats.”
— Leo Wolf
@ billr – See the third question in the “About”-FAQ: https://www.jesusandmo.net/about/
And of course Jebus forgives even a merciless child killer as long as he repents. Give me the man (like me) who hasn’t done anything seriously criminal…against the mass murderer who suddenly says sorry so save his cowardly arse. Sure, I have inflicted violence on people, but in every case it was in self defence or defence of people more vunerable than I, but those who kill for lust, game or fun….I would put down, like the mad dogs they are…
That last sentence should read lust, GAIN or fun…
🎶 You can be a killer
And eat your victims too.
No matter what your sin is
He’ll turn a cheek for you.
Save a million people
With a cure for a disease
Won’t get you through the pearly gates
Unless you’re on your knees. 🎶
– Kiss the Magic Butt, Universal Dice.
I’m skeptical about this proposition – a significant number of people avoid evil out of fear of a judgemental deity.
1. Like, if they lose faith in existence of that deity, and have no inherent compunction about doing evil, then we’d notice this a lot. People do lose faith.
2. For people like that, the question would then be, for every judgement, what action does the deity prescribe?
2.a. Can’t find anything on the subject? Anything goes. We’d notice a lot of people with this problem.
2.b. As such people are clearly sociopaths of some kind, how likely is it that they will find the deity prescribing actions that are in fact evil? We’d notice this too.
Every normal person develops a sense of right and wrong. They don’t care if the bible says not to eat shrimp. They may feel a deity looking over their shoulder and judging them, but that delusion doesn’t add any moral instruction.
Oh, God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe say, “Man, you must be puttin’ me on”
God say, “No”, Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want Abe
But the next time you see me comin’, you better run”
Well, Abe said, “Where you want this killin’ done?”
God said, “Out on Highway 61”
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=hwy+61+dylan+youtube&&mid=CADD9BC685C1279FD01DCADD9BC685C1279FD01D&FORM=VAMGZC
Although (like many people here) I am an atheist I recognize that my beliefs, attitudes and behaviors are to a large extent the product of the Judeo-Christian culture I was raised in. My attitudes regarding things such as the primacy of the individual and freedom of choice and conscience are examples of the beliefs I hold that were shaped by Judeo-Christian ideas that are not necessarily held by other cultures. Ironically I seem to be the product of a religion and deity I don’t believe in.
I wish I knew more about Bosnia. I just recently learned that it isn’t entirely Muslim, but rather a confederation or something of a Bosnian and a Serbian state, presumably Muslim and Christian respectively. Populations that go back centuries.
Think they differ the way England and Pakistan differ, since they adhere to different religions? With respect to primacy of the individual, etc.? Or is Republika Srpska equally or more barbaric than the Bosnia-Herzegovina Muslim state?
Religion probably does make a little difference, if it’s consistently drummed into people for few centuries. It stabilizes cultural traits by providing a structure for control. But it’s the source of nothing much. The goat herders that blessed us with Jehovah weren’t likely of like mind with the Greeks, and we owe more to the latter than the former.
The religious control over what this or that object or action your god (reputably) has forbidden is the thin edge of the slope that leads toss-pilchards to then end up killing people who (rightly) say their god is a useless fictional windbag…
>The goat herders that blessed us with Jehovah weren’t likely of like mind with the Greeks, and we owe more to the latter than the former.
Why do you assume that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio#Historic_expressions_of_the_principle
Also the Greeks and Romans had sex slaves and infanticide.
Presumption of innocence goes back to Hammurabi.
Everyone had sex slaves and infanticide. For entertainment, read Moses’ take on how to deal Midian captives, Numbers 31.
Of course, Hammurabi didn’t invent justice in a world of random savagery, it’s just the first written evidence we’ve been able to dig up. Fundamental notions about the individual etc., are very closely tied to culture, and not only when there are written records of it. The particular flavor that’s characteristic of the English speaking world, is presumably an amalgam of Anglo-saxon and Norse attitudes, with some Celts in the background and some Norman French on top.
Christianity doesn’t really touch that stuff.
Thats the point. The three main religions are all based on wholly fictional texts. That originate from times where the apex preditor did what it does best…kill indescriminately…a good basis for invalidating and ridiculing the knob cheeses who are too stupid to think for themselves…
Bvereshagen says: @ Thank you for your reasonable post. I will ask you to only believe in clear evidence. Firstly you are alive so clear evidence shows you had ancestors thousand of years ago who loved and protected their young and those weaker than themselves.
These are, therefore, Human instincts, they have nothing to do with Christianity which arrived thousands of years later.
So – clear evidence shows that what is claimed as ‘Christian Value’ is, in fact, ‘Human value’ that has been usurped by religion for it’s own propaganda. Note the evidence that all known religions make the claim that without them, there is no moral code. But the clear evidence shows us that human decency and honesty existed long before religion claimed them for themselves.
It is called ‘clear evidence’.
Well … cultures vary a lot, and some reasonably successful ones have operated by significantly different standards than ours. My view on this is that our “values” are not only not inherent in humanity, they aren’t even universal in the established Christian realm.
But same difference. If you accept more basic criteria for moral probity, then the benighted heathens are sure to meet the standard; if you get much more specific, many Christian societies won’t clear the bar.
Because God doesn’t really tell you how to live your life from moment to moment, any more than the municipal legislative code. That’s society’s work.
Don Cave@ Clear evidence shows us that human decency and honesty existed long before religion claimed them for themselves.
That is why It is called ‘clear evidence’.
Plenty of animals, notably elephants, show care and concern for their neighbours, share responsibility for their young and mourn their dead in clear displays of empathy. There is obviously a book somewhere yet to be found which gives them guidance from an elephant in the clouds who provides instructions on how to behave.
Maybe it’s Dumbo!
Fine, but that wasn’t the proposition. bvereshagen:
I expect there would be more examples, of particular societal attitudes towards the role of the individual, vs. one’s social group, vs. outsiders, and various ethical stances. I don’t agree with him that he or anyone got that kind of thing from a Judaeo-Christian heritage, but we’re certainly talking about more than the common denominator among humans and elephants.
Mr Cave, I feel that you lean into the Religious apologist camp far too much. Human morality is forgotten given the right circumstances. The good film “Straw dogs” shows us how a highly intelligent mathematician turns to savage violence when the circumstaces require it…Religion and Society is on a very slim knife edge is it not?
Not really.
No, it’s more than just that common denominator but the evolution that brought that about predates any Judeo- Xtian influence by millennia until, as Ferlinghetti says, ‘Some time during eternity some guy shows up, claiming that the cat who really laid it on us is his dad’.
Nature/nurture arguments rarely find a convincing conclusion but I reckon the idea that it’s a good idea to get on well with the bloke in the next cave (part in some form of all religions) forms an instinctive base for most ‘moral’ behaviour – in people and elephants.
To suggest that religions based on paternalism, commandments, congregations, clergy, ‘flocks’ and ‘sheep’ encourages ‘the primacy of the individual’ seems to be a real contradiction.
Real individualism requiring escape from the brainwashing of religion seems to be displayed more in these pages than anywhere that the influence of the Judeo-Xtian persists.
Right, the priests are always happy to take credit for anything, be it a good harvest or the docile nature of the peons.
What really deserves that credit for a specific social structure, though, of course has to be specific to the origins of that structure. If we want to celebrate the difference between northern European culture, vs. some other that we come into contact with, we can’t very well chalk it up to the survival skills of the prehistoric ancestors of all of us.
A sort of amateur analysis that focuses more on the other guy, but does try to dig into values, that some of you may have already read: The World’s Most Toxic Value System. He doesn’t give religion any credit for northern Europe’s style – and he doesn’t blame Islam for making the Middle East what it is.
Religion held back progress for thousands of years. Anybody who believes a single word a religious “teacher” has uttered is stupid…end of…
Who was it that said “Religion started when the first crook met mr gullable fuckwit!”…
A quote I read a long time ago (I have no idea who said it) makes a lot of sense to me.
“Without religion, good people would be doing good things and bad people would be doing bad things. But to make good people do bad things you need religion.”
Choirboy. The Elephant analogy is a good one. Bit since, homo sapiens is the only species with reasonably permanent written communication skills it is the only species benighted with religious rottery…however the Elephant in the room is SEX! I think all cult creating crooks do so to get access to.as many sexual partners as is possible and spread their genes….
Good is better’n evil cuz it’s nicer.
— Mammy Yokum