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Discussion (59)¬

  1. Fat Freddy's cat says:

    ‘We’re all individuals’

    ‘I’m not’

    Came to mind

  2. DocAtheist says:

    Smiling. Extra good one.

  3. Rrr says:

    All the characters are on a sliding scale. Or should I say, slippery slope? Whizskids.

  4. M27Holts says:

    I want to identify as a slug….hang on I’m not leaving a slimy trail as I travel from a to b….ok I want to identify as a dry humanoid slug….

  5. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: Will you kindly stop eating all my cauliflower plants!

  6. Jesus F Iscariot says:

    How can I unsubscribe? I’ve tried the feature at the end of the email for the past four weeks but it doesn’t function.

    Author…could you do this?

  7. jb says:

    You’re either non-binary or you’re not!

    Ooooh, I like that! Gonna steal it…

  8. GenPlaten says:

    Is that Moses’ shepherd’s crook, or has he grown a tentacle? I kinda want it to be a tentacle, TBH.

  9. M27Holts says:

    Aha. Yeah…SOG…surround your veggie plot with bottles of good quality beer…and like all slugs…I wiil prefer the tipple an leave your veggies alone….haha

  10. Bvereshagen says:

    We ard all unique and it is crucial that we demonstrate that by not varying one iota from the approved agenda.

  11. PeterN says:

    We identify as a null entity. Also, we really hope that if George Boole were alive today they would identify as non-binary.

  12. Slartibartfast says:

    Nice to see Moses’ “you’re either non-binary or you’re not” line given another airing, Author!

    It’s one of my favourite J&M lines!

  13. postdoggerel says:

    There are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don’t.

  14. paradoctor says:

    I’m not comfortable with being labeled binary or non-binary.

  15. M27Holts says:

    Aren’t maths jokes another example of white misogynistic fascism?

  16. M27Holts says:

    I’ve always had a penchant for making a bitwise field to set the flags for any specific object. Thats got to be a paraphilia?

  17. RevNix says:

    You’ve either got blue hair or you haven’t…

  18. Son of Glenner says:

    16 is binary but 17 is primary.

  19. jb says:

    Actually, “You’re either non-binary or you’re not” may not be true. It may not be false either…

  20. M27Holts says:

    Computers wouldn’t work with a tertiary system? Even Spock would be flummoxed…

  21. postdoggerel says:

    Gödel’s persistent quest for rationality sought alternatives to the nature of truth. This eventually led to the discovery of alternative facts and truthiness. Subsequent developments include the Big Rip theory of political calculus and its detrimental effect on social cohesion.

  22. M27Holts says:

    Alternative facts and truthiness? Sounds like a quote from a Terry Pratchett novel to me…

  23. M27Holts says:

    And yes, this slug CAN read…

  24. PeterN says:

    The binary nature of computer language has more to do with the physical storage devices’ properties which, until quite recently, were based on magnetism. If the basic values were True, False, Unknown/Unset, there would be a fair number of simplifications in computer science. Now, if you really wanted to flummox Spock, I’d recommend a Steam Punk analog computer. where every bit is a dial between 0 and 1 inclusive. Awesome for statistics and artists but otherwise rather troublesome when you forget to standardize significant digits between programs.

  25. M27Holts says:

    Electromagnetism? Flow of electrons or no flow…binary obvs….

  26. Laripu says:

    M27Holts, Alternative facts and truthiness are details from US culture.

    Truthiness is a word invented by Stephen Colbert when he was satirically playing a character: a stupid ultra right wing talk show host. It means the characteristic of having the feel of truth without actually being true.

    Alternative facts is a phrase first used – unsarcastically – by Kellyanne Conway, an advisor to Trump, in defending an accusation that Trump’s press secretary had lied.

    The takeaway is that the American right has succumbed to swindlers, who have succeeded in mendacity, fooling enough of the people to keep getting elected. They have exploited the fact that the majority of the population is dim and gullible.

  27. postdoggerel says:

    Gödel must have foreseen how people would use his incompleteness theorem. He starved himself to death.

  28. Son of Glenner says:

    Laripu: “The takeaway is that the American right …” It seems to me that certain UK politicians have noted the success of that approach in the USA and are doing much the same here in the UK.

    What sort of a name is “De Pfeffel” anyway?

  29. me not says:

    @M27Holts. n-valued logic is a thing, see for instance here for a design of ternary gates (n is three) here

    Or this company using the approach in cryptographic applications

  30. Laripu says:

    Son of Glenner, apparently it’s Bavarian:
    It’s from a town called Neuburg. I spent many months in Neuburg and Ingolstadt in the early 90s, working at the German air force base there. I never knowingly met a Pfeffel.

    So anyway, you’re saying that de Pfeffel Johnson, a blond Bavarian, has concluded the German takeover of the UK using American conman techniques. I can’t argue with that. 🙂

    Here’s my favorite Boris story, linked below. It’s long, but worth reading to the end. It seems that his con is the same technique as Trump’s, except that 1) he’s completely conscious of what he’s doing and 2) therefore he may survive politically.

  31. PeterN says:

    Electromagnetism? Flow of electrons or no flow…binary obvs….
    Unless you do something completely wacky like the direction of flow is taken into account.

  32. Donn says:

    I thought England was sort of a province of Germany anyway, since Queen Anne’s demise.

  33. M27Holts says:

    Yeah but tertiary systems are rare in natural science? Suppose most databases allow for null (unknown) state of a bit column so it has three values 0 false, 1 – true and null – unknown…

  34. HaggisForBrains says:

    Laripu, that Jeremy Vine story about Boris is fascinating, and very revealing. I commend every Brit to read it.

  35. OtterBe says:

    Thanks for that Boris story. Grist for the mill, for sure

  36. M27Holts says:

    I think its about time to let economic computers run the country…if a computer can beat the finest chess players then they could run a nations economy better…surely?

  37. M27Holts says:

    Just don’y put them in charge if our trident subs…

  38. Son of Glenner says:

    HaggisForBrains: I’ve seen the Boris story before, possibly even on this site and previously submitted by Laripu, but it is well worth repeating.

    I’ve noticed that Boris and his team, these days, refer to Brexit as the will of the British people, as though it is an unfortunate imposition, ignoring the fact that Boris broadcast a pro-Brexit big lie (literally as big as a double-decker bus) on the eve of the Brexit referendum, when the Remainers had no time to reply. I am convinced that that big lie tipped the balance in the referendum, so that it was a very small pro-Brexit majority, rather than a small pro-Remain majority, and I shall always consider him personally responsible for Brexit and all its consequences. BTW, the Scots, including me and perhaps you, and the Northern Irish, voted against Brexit; the slightly more gullible English and Welsh swallowed Boris’s bait.

  39. Rrr says:

    SoG: Does that in any way indicate who is more likely to actually have haggis for brains?

  40. M27Holts says:

    I am mancunian and voted to stay in the EU, basically because I felt that it would be better maintaining a status quo and avoiding unecessary change. I think that the unstability our economy is suffering has been exacerbated by our withdrawal from the common market…

  41. Son of Glenner says:

    Rrr: It is a well-known alternative factoid that haggis is highly nutritious and encourages healthy brain development. The likes of Boris and Trump are probably symptomatic of severe haggis deficiency.

    Why don’t you give it a try?

    Some signs of intelligence in last comment from M27Holts – well done, Rob, you have obviously been enjoying the famous scottish delicacy, and gaining the many benefits.

  42. postdoggerel says:

    My lord, methinks, is very long in talk.
    Naught rests for me in this tumultuous strife
    But to make open proclamation.
    O, how this discord doth afflict my soul!
    Till bones and flesh and sinews fall away,
    The quarrel toucheth none but us alone;
    Betwixt ourselves let us decide it then.
    I prithee give me leave to curse awhile.
    I’ll over then to England with this news
    And make this Brexit to be solemnized.
    Thou mayst not wander in that labyrinth:
    There Minotaurs and ugly treasons lurk.

  43. Dave says:

    Re ternary computers, the Soviets built one.

  44. Dude says:

    You guys have never talked to a non-binary person have you

  45. Dude says:

    Like Jesus if you’re gonna try to make these jokes at least try not to sound like the TERF version of Dr. Bumquist

  46. Author says:

    You guys have never talked to a non-binary person have you

    None of us has ever talked to anyone who ISN’T non-binary, and neither have you, you silly child.

  47. Dude says:

    Holy shit it’s the One Joke

  48. Donn says:

    I don’t see anything in ternary, really. Any useful data on a high level computer is multiple bit words that hold a range of values (i.e., already more than three.) Maybe it’s just a lack of imagination, but I don’t see the use of 3 values on one bit.

    Moving up to the logic of operations on those values, in higher level languages, it’s common to represent values, if appropriate, in a way that recognizes the possibility of a null or otherwise exceptional value. Sometimes the programmer has to remember to test for that, but increasingly it’s part of the functional properties of the datum that has to be accounted for if you want the program to compile. Things have come a long ways since FORTRAN (as hard as it may be to get the industry out of the ’80s when it comes to programming languages and operating systems.)

  49. M27Holts says:

    Yay. I programmed in Fortran 77 back in the day…but did all my serious programming in C and C++…

  50. Author says:

    Holy shit it’s the One Joke

    There are many jokes about your absurd, reality-denying religion, and there will be many more before it finally shrivels away to an embarrassing footnote in history. Ironically, that wasn’t one of them – but the fact that you thought it was is quite funny. So thanks for that.

  51. Laripu says:

    Conflict is interesting. What is Dude’s “absurd, reality-denying religion”? It’s it a belief in the existence of transgender people or did I miss something?

    I think the increase in non-standard sexualities is a consequence of endocrine disrupting plastics in our food chain, lungs, blood, and human placenta. (See supporting links below.) With all the potential for endocrine disruption, I’d be surprised if the percentage of non-standard sexualities stayed constant.

    On the other hand, I do agree with Author’s assertion that to a degree everyone is non-binary. But sometimes differences in degree amount to differences in kind. For example RGB(255, 5, 4) is red even though it has some green and blue in it.

    Saying that everyone is non-binary because most people are 1% or 2% non-binary may miss a larger point.


  52. Author says:

    Yes, I think you missed something, Laripu. Gender ideology is not about believing whether or not trans people exist, and ‘trans’ is not a sexuality. It (GI) originated in university humanities departments and propagated via the internet. Big subject. Much reading to do. I suggest Kathleen Stock’s Material Girls is a good start, or Helen Joyce’s Trans. You will discover that there are no larger points to be made about ‘non-binary’ identities. Only jokes.

  53. Donn says:

    Yet if jokes about it ceased to amuse, wouldn’t that suggest a lack of larger points to be made? Albeit perhaps not among them the larger point Laripu had in mind when “they” said that.

  54. Donn says:

    C and C++ are essentially FORTRAN with more places to injure yourself. The kind of data structure I had in mind as essentially ternary-ish is commonly encountered in functional languages like Ocaml and Haskell, and more recently in more or less procedural languages like Rust. Wherein a value may be either valid or not, and can be used in a computation with provisions for failure should it be invalid. Or whatever variations on that you might wish for.

    The point being that while we can and do construct program logic that functions in whatever necessary level of value ambiguity, no such use exists for that feature at the bit level, so there’s no point in hardware support. Not that I know anything about it, but it’s my opinion never the less.

  55. M27Holts says:

    Eh. Human sexuality is a fascinating subject….need a genius to find the mathematical model so it can be used to smash humanities wankers on the head with…

  56. M27Holts says:

    I have eaten Haggis on several occaisions. But I preferred the battered deep fried pepperoni pizza with chips and a battered marsbar to follow….I had in inverness many moons ago…

  57. Laripu says:

    Author, you’ve clearly read more about this than I have, and I won’t be able to get that level of knowledge quickly.

    I do have some general thoughts that I think are true:

    There are differences between private belief/behavior, public discrimination, and public accommodation.

    For example, someone may say they are homosexual; it would be good if they weren’t discriminated against in employment because of it; but there’s no need for them to receive tax breaks because of it. There could be a bit of accommodation due to past discrimination… I’m ok with gay pride parades, because for so many years homosexuals suffered discrimination and even brutal violence. Obvious and possibly flamboyant homosexuality is the price society pays for having previously repressed it.

    It gets more complicated with people who prefer to live as a gender different than their genitals suggest. I’m most cases, I’ll defer to them concerning the veracity of their claims about their feelings. Especially so if they go through surgery because of that. I know someone, daughter of a co-worker, who was born a woman, lives as a man, and had her breasts removed. That’s not a mere claim, that’s commitment.

    So how much accommodation should such people get? Some, probably, and as to how much, that’s a political question. According to religious people, none, because it’s all an abomination and a sin.

    It gets even more complicated when it comes to people who make claims about being non-binary. Whether I believe them or not is probably irrelevant. I’ll accept that they should not be discriminated against in housing or employment.

    What societal accommodation should they get? That’s probably where it gets sticky because I’m not even sure what “non-binary” means. That’s where I need to read a bit more to get understanding.

    Just because something originated in a university humanities department doesn’t mean it’s false. It also doesn’t mean it’s true. But even if it’s true, it doesn’t mean we ought to do something about it.

    Should we require “non-binary toilets”? Probably not. Should we allow people to choose which toilets they use on a day-to-day basis, depending on their feelings and/or clothing? Probably not. I’d say pick one, dress appropriately and and stick to that; but if you change, stick to your change permanently.

    Minorities ought to be protected, but not necessarily accommodated at a huge price or at the great inconvenience of others. (For example, Hasidic Jews on commercial flights should not be able to dictate the gender of the person sitting next to them.)

    Nevertheless, while lack of accommodation doesn’t normally amount to discrimination, sometimes it does. Putting a transgender person (either direction) in a prison with hardened male criminals is almost certain to lead to brutal rapes. There ought to be some accommodation there.

    That’s all I can say until I learn more, which won’t be quick.
    On the topic of programming languages, I started in FORTRAN in the early 80s, learned C in the late 80s and 90s, and started C++ seriously from 2000 on. I hope to learn some quantum programming when I retire.

    Back in the 80s, I had a job for a couple of years writing business software in an interpreted language called Business Basic. It was a kind of hell, both for the language and the topic. I much prefer the engineering environment I’m in now, with C++.

  58. Donn says:

    Speaking of accommodations … he/him? I’m expected, in some circles at least, to use nonsensical plural pronouns, for people who notwithstanding insist on having discernable gender – they aren’t “it” – and notwithstanding that these people aren’t even present at the moment. Out of supposed respect for their gender identity or lack thereof.

    I fooled around with C++ in the ’80s, “CFront”. There have been lots of improvements to computer programming languages since then. Some of those improvements have been grafted in some form into C++, but you wouldn’t believe how much better they work in their own native habitat.


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