That barmaid just won’t stop trying not to believe in things that aren’t true!

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Discussion (27)¬

  1. Donn says:

    Ooh – mean.

  2. Laripu says:

    The original quote was from the American poet Maya Angelou: “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” It was “shows you”, not “tells you”, and therefore was about behaviour, not about claims.

    It was about racial discrimination and prejudice.

    Someone may claim that all people of race X are god’s children and that they therefore love them. Then you see that in fact this person never hires people of race X into positions of responsibility, cheats them of overtime pay, and doesn’t give them promotions or raises even when they produce exemplary work.

    What they do shows who they are, not what they say.

  3. Matthew Maguire says:

    I feel some IDpol coming on. “Careful now…” as Father Ted would say. Striking similarity though between J&M here and those seeking to promote identitarianism (which, as we are constantly told, MUST ALWAYS be respected, because feels).

  4. Rebecca says:

    There’s a big difference between calling someone what they want to be called and giving them free beer

  5. M27Holts says:

    Did somebody use the magic words….

  6. Keltic Green says:

    Why doesn’t Jesus just turn water into beer? Is it that this power only works with wine, and not other alcoholic beverages?

  7. Donn says:

    He turned it into “wine” – not necessarily a nice Voignier or whatever you might fancy. I picture the beer turning out something like Coors.

  8. DW says:

    Too right. It’s like when those pinkos tell you they’re atheists! God is real, so they must be lying about who they are, and they just hate God!! And the gays – same sex attraction isn’t real, it’s just sin, so if someone tells you they’re gay, just refuse to believe what isn’t real and send them for therapy!!1! Same if someone tells you they’re an “evolutionary biologist”: just don’t believe them!!one!!

    Or we try some nuance with our critical thinking instead. There is a difference between claims about objective reality (e.g. “there is a God: I am His Special Friend”) and subjective reality (e.g. “I support United”). Objective reality can hypothetically be proven (theophany still pending), but subjective reality not so much, so dismissing the latter for lack of proof is a little silly.

    Though if I’m recognising the dog whistle correctly (sorry, I never did collect those tokens from the Daily Mail)… There is good evidence in support of the experience of trans people (reports of dysphoria in young children, brain comparisons), so denial of that would definitely come under the “act of faith” heading, and can be as readily dismissed as any Special Friend claims. Unless one considers sexual identity to be solely about the possession (or not) of a penis – but that is surely the definition of a dick move?

  9. Laripu says:

    M27, I’ve just seen the first episode of the first series of Clarkson’s Farm. Mostly, I find it amusing, and worth watching, but when he first showed his enormous Lamborghini tractor, I had to laugh.

    On the other hand, my wife laughed all the way through. While I’m a city boy, my wife was raised in a small German town, and spent summers helping out on farms owned by her relatives. She was laughing almost in advance because she knew how stupid Clarkson was being.

    Mostly, he’s not really experiencing the risk of farming because he’s being paid for each episode. The cost of farming is absorbed by the episode’s production cost.

    Will watch more of them. Thanks, M27.

  10. M27Holts says:

    Aye and it gets better too…

  11. M27Holts says:

    The water into beer process is usually known as a reverse fosters,budweiser,coors and carling process…

  12. Donn says:

    Judging by the amount of cartoon space dedicated to it, the identity thing may be a little more intense there in the UK than it has been in the US.

    There it seemed to be more commonly about crypto-gender-identity, to coin a phrase. They declare they are not what they appear to be, so they can be entitled to be referred to in the plural. English of course has a neuter pronoun “it”, but you can’t use that, because … truly genderless entities are things. So aren’t really genderless – they are crypto-gendered.

  13. jb says:

    “Unless one considers sexual identity to be solely about the possession (or not) of a penis ā€“ but that is surely the definition of a dick move?”

    But the important question is not “identity”, which is mental, but what you are physically — so yes, it does matter whether you have a penis! I have no direct access to your inner life, but I can easily verify what sort of body you have, male or female, and from my point of view if you have a man’s body then you are a man, period. If a boy is waving his dick around in a girl’s locker room why would it matter to the girls whether he “identifies” as female? Whether he does or not, it’s equally disturbing either way. Why would his mental state matter to them?

    Of course it’s possible through surgery and hormone therapy to modify your body to the point where you can pass as the opposite sex, and that does confuse the issue of which bathroom or locker room to use. But there is a second issue, which has to do with that mental state. If there is anything that normal people should be able to agree on, surely it would be that there is something horrifyingly wrong, mentally, with a man who feels compelled to have himself castrated and pumped full of hormones so that he looks like a woman! I think the thing I find most objectionable about trans ideology is the demand that this be normalized, and that anyone who refuses to believe should be condemned as an evil bigot. I’m sorry, but while I generally try to do my best not to make anyone’s life more difficult than it already is, that doesn’t include lying about what I believe to be true.

  14. Divizna says:

    Re “When someone shows you who they are”: Or in other words, “By their fruit shall you know them.”

  15. Succubus ov Satan says:

    jb states “If a boy is waving his dick around in a girlā€™s locker room ” – thing is, no transfemale would actually do that – the penis would be a source of horror and shame and they would do their best to hide it -(even to the extent of pushing it back into the body and supergluing it out of sight), thus anyone that did “wave it around ” is probably not trans but something else claiming to be trans

  16. Succubus ov Satan says:

    JB has clearly not read much beyond the tabloid press and displays a near total ignorance about the nature of what trans identify actually is. which is a variant of embyro development not some shallow lifestyle choice

  17. Gus says:


    Very interesting, thanks.

    Unfortunately we have no objective way of assessing “what people do”, but rather what they say. So normatively this creates a situation whereby people can self-identify as whatever they please in spurious fashion to gain an advantage. Here in my country there are examples galore – white people (clearly white not even “mixed race”) self-identitying as black to access jobs reserved for minorities. No lawyer has yet managed to overturn a single spurious claim, because there are no “Nuremberg laws” to determine who is what, so we have to take people’s word for it and that’s that. Notice that the alternative, i. e. enacting laws such as those of Nazi Germany (inspired in American racialist policies of the 1920s lest we forget!) is obviously worse.

    The French approach of having an official State policy of color-blindness has never been considered seriously in the USA. Not surprising, for a country that invented the term “octoroon”.

  18. Shaughn says:

    My rules of thumb: “that pisseth against the wall” is male (1 Kings 21:21 KJV – sometimes the old book comes in handy) and, cocksure as it might sound: ‘If it’s me, it’s manly’. (Thanks to Nancy Mitford-inspired ‘if it’s me, it’s U’ ). All else is not but I’ll identify that as walls worthy pissing against – or not. šŸ™‚

  19. postdoggerel says:

    The sexual identity conundrum is silly when you consider
    everyone loves a good, hard, Dickins cider!

  20. M27Holts says:

    The my truth is THE TRUTH is clearly the route to oblivion. Once you allow subjectivity to be indistinguishable from objectivity you are fucked. End of…

  21. M27Holts says:

    When somebody asks me if I like Dickins…I always answer, I don’t know, I have never been invited to one….

  22. Succubus ov Satan says:

    “Barmaid we don’t understand don’t give us our Dickins cider for free”

  23. Anonymous says:

    M27, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with this:

    “The my truth is THE TRUTH is clearly the route to oblivion. Once you allow subjectivity to be indistinguishable from objectivity you are fucked.”

    It deserved to be repeated.

    But I’ll use the pronoun of their appearance, out of politeness.

  24. Laripu says:

    Sorry, that bit above was me.

  25. Cormoran says:

    @pink unicorn: If no transed male (you cannot be “transfemale”, femaleness is a biological thing, not a feeling) would ever wave his dick around in a girl’s locker room, then how come so many males who are granted access to women’s spaces use their penises to rape the girls and women there?

    Wouldn’t that make them even more dysphoric, hmmm?

    If those are “no true transwomen” then how do you propose to keep the not so true transwomen out of women’s spaces? There’s no objective way to differentiate males with gender feelings from males who just claim to have gender feelings.

    (Not that ANY man ever belongs in women’s spaces. Changing rooms aren’t about feelings, they’re about privacy. That’s why they are segregated by body type, not by feelings and interests. They’re changing rooms, not Hogwarts houses.)

    And how does dysphoria in young children prove anything?

    Jesus may very well have known that he is the son of god when he was five years old.

    And if Jesus lived today, as “Jesus and Mo” pretends, then his feeling that he is the son of god might well show up in a brain scan.

    So what?

    Would you fall to your knees and beg your Lord for forgiveness for ever having doubted him as soon as you see the brain scan and the Virgin Mary confirms that her son has always felt like the son of god?

  26. M27Holts says:

    Do these feelings have an abitrary chronological length, I mean you could think/claim to be female in those periods when you feel that voyeuristic thrill of being able to donn knickers and a skirt and look at the girls/women undressing . Then once satisfied, you could then return to your satusfied state and put on your culturally deemed male clothing and go about your day.

  27. Cormoran says:


    That’s called “gender fluid” and is a totally valid gender identity.

    Google Sam Brinton.

    Steals women’s suitcases at the airport. Wears those women’s clothes in public, and does god knows what else in them in private.

    But when he has to appear in court because of those thefts, he can wear a suit, his gender identity is still totally valid, despite him quite obviously choosing to do what benefits him most at any given time.

    So yeah, that is exactly how it works.


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