Discussion (42)¬

1. Bodach says:

   July 14, 2009 at 3:32 pm

   When oh when will Europeans stop attacking Muslims? Muslims do a much better job on their own.

2. Ayashi says:

   July 14, 2009 at 3:40 pm

   Sure, a real embargo set against all muslim countries – think cuba like embargo – would be fun to watch from afar. But I doubt it’ll ever happen considering the huge raw resources those countries have.

3. umm says:

   July 14, 2009 at 3:41 pm

   how are they doing a much better job on their own?

4. John The Geologist says:

   July 14, 2009 at 3:49 pm

   Nice to see Mo displaying the usual Muslim sense of proportion.

5. John The Geologist says:

   July 14, 2009 at 3:54 pm

   @ Umm

   An appropriate choice of alias I think.

   A cursory perusal of the first frame (top left for reference) in the cartoon above this comment/discussion section will indicate a few examples of how most Muslims currently being killed are being killed by other Muslims.

   The author obviously left out a lot of other examples like Algerian killings, stonings, beheadings, wallings and so forth perpetrated against Muslims by Muslims (and curiously enough not by the prefidious western crusaders).

   Clear now ?

6. John Moore says:

   July 14, 2009 at 4:10 pm

   Even better is the fact that Europe is becoming more and more Muslim all of the time. So Mo’s statement about “Death to Europe” is more than a double entrendre. Gotta love the Author, all hail the Author…..

7. umm says:

   July 14, 2009 at 4:18 pm

   haha
   gotcha! i didnt quite read it right. i thought the person meant they are fine by themselves and are literally doing a good job of maintaining a civil society.

   carelessness 😉

   muchas gracias amigo

8. catt says:

   July 14, 2009 at 4:29 pm

   @ayashi

   that is kinda racist and there are non-muslims even in muslim countries.
   if an embargo is the solution, i think all religions need that. ecxept hindus. they are cool

9. Ayashi says:

   July 14, 2009 at 4:35 pm

   oh but the day religions on a hole are banned/embargo-ed/whatever would be such a great day indeed !
   Maybe then most of mankind could get out of middleage shadow and finally embrace something more decent and humanrespecting way of life.

10. Godless not gormless says:

    July 14, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    Ayashi:

    Although muslim countries have vast resources, I think I am right in saying that this is mainly oil. Firstly, they have needed western technology, know how and labour to extract this stuff and secondly they need western markets to sell it to. I realise that over the last few decades at least, some muslims have been getting educated in western countries and have most likely managed to make use of western knowledge in universities etc their own countries, but many islamic countries are wastelands. These people spend most of their time with their faces in the dirt praising the meccan maniac or burning American and British flags and screaming or killing people. Apart from that, they sell food and stuff to each other. They are not very productive or forward thinking people. All down to islam of course, keeping them locked into the 7th century. Do you really think that they would do all that well without the west? (This is a genuine question btw, not a digg)

11. Ayashi says:

    July 14, 2009 at 9:53 pm

    When i talked about vast raw resources ( oil obviously, but there’s also plenty of other metalic resources), i meant resources that interest western companies… with the added benefit of dirtcheap labor, and near non-existen security and quality limitations.
    Which in turn will prevent any kind of real economic shutdown like the cuba embargo was.

12. spoing says:

    July 14, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    hehe spot on, @GnG … Muslims certainly do provide some opportunities for black comedy … just begging to become Sasha Baron Cohen’s next parody character … why has that one not been tried yet I wonder?

13. Godless not gormless says:

    July 15, 2009 at 12:22 am

    Ayashi

    Very true. It’s highly unlikely that this would ever happen because of that greed and by time these selfish morons realise that they should never have made the arabs rich it’ll be too late

14. WilliamJansen says:

    July 15, 2009 at 5:52 am

    I understand European Muslims concern with European issues, that is well and good.

    If I lived in say Egypt, Iraq or Pakistan I would have a lot of issues closer to home that would be in my focus.

15. WilliamJansen says:

    July 15, 2009 at 5:53 am

    Sasha Barat Cohen starring in The Life of Mo.

    Now THAT would be awesome.

16. Satantiago says:

    July 15, 2009 at 5:57 am

    It wasn’t a German born guy, it was a RUSSIAN man who came to Germany in 2006 the one who stabbed the woman to death.

17. Timothy (TRiG) says:

    July 15, 2009 at 9:48 am

    I understand that Sacha Baron Cohen’s most famous character is Ali G, so I think the parody’s been done.

    On the other hand, he hasn’t filmed Ali G yet. That character has appeared only on television.

    TRiG.

18. pikeamus says:

    July 15, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Timothy: Clearly you missed the Ali G movie. It was pretty damn funny but not quite on the level of Borat I thought.

19. Ayashi says:

    July 15, 2009 at 11:44 am

    @williamjansen
    I don’t know about you, but if i lived in say Egypt, Iraq or Pakistan the first thing i’d do would be moving to an other country, one that suite better with my idiology/way of life. It’s not like one is FORCED to live anywhere really…

20. Flea says:

    July 15, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    Ayashi: I hope you are VERY young.

21. azurefrog says:

    July 15, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    @Ayashi
    Look up the Berlin Wall, then go read about North Korea, and after that: “Gulag”.
    If you’d prefer to see it in film rather than print, might I recommend “The Killing Fields”.

    Many, many people throughout history have been forced to live where they desperately did NOT want to.

22. jerry w says:

    July 15, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    @John Moore
    Maybe Europe is becoming more and more Muslim all of the time, but French is still the language of France.

    O.K., maybe that’s except for the Northern part which is totally swamped with Algerians and others from former French colonies that were (and still are) given free unfettered entry, but as of today it’s French, nes ces pas?

23. MyCatIsGod says:

    July 15, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    A couple of comments, which I hope won’t provoke too hostile a reaction 🙂

    Firstly, in fairness, the two situations explored by the cartoon aren’t directly comparable. The Iranian government didn’t target protestors because they weren’t Muslims (i.e. it was about politics, not religion). And the Janjaweed don’t target black Sudanese because they’re not Muslims (it was about traditional racial/tribal tensions and resources, not religion). Iraq is a bit different – it’s sectarian violence, certainly, but Shia’ vs Sunni violence there has far more in keeping with, say, Catholic/Protestant violence in Northern Ireland during the Troubles (as Dawkins astutely pointed out – the IRA and the Unionists weren’t going hammer and tongs at each other over differences on the theology of transubstantiation). However, the poor German lady was indeed targeted (and murdered) because she was a Muslim, and for no other reason. I’m not saying that justifies the response of some Arab states – but simply that it isn’t really a direct comparison.

    Secondly, I live in Northern France, and the language spoken here is overwhelmingly French. The Algerians in my local chip shop use only French, even when I speak to them in Arabic. Most Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans here are the same. A few Arabic words have entered the language (Flous for money, Tabib for doctor, etc.) but as almost all words in English that start with ‘al’ have an Arabic root (alchemy, alcohol, algebra, etc.), there’s not too much that can be made of that, surely.

    Finally, @ Ayashi and Godless not Gormless and a few others: have we moved on from making fun of illogical religious beliefs to fairly naked Arab-bashing here? If so, then this is a very sad conclusion to my years of enjoyment of the discussions on J&Mo. Not to mention the deep irony inherent in implying that a whole culture and people are unenlightened and barbarous. Surely descending to that level is the ultimate unenlightened, barbarous state?

    Just my 2 centimes worth 🙂

24. Toast in the machine says:

    July 15, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    Fair points MyCatIsGod, but I think you’ve misread the original cartoon. Author clearly refers to ‘Muslim-on-muslim violence’, he’s not asserting that the Iranian regime or the Janjaweed target non-muslims (though you could probably argue that the Iranian regime targets those who are not muslim-enough).

    He’s saying there’s a double-standard amongst muslims – ie. hysteria when some racist maniac stabs a muslim egyptian to death in Germany vs total silence when muslims slaughter muslims by the tens of thousands in Iran, Iraq, Algeria etc.

25. Blondie says:

    July 16, 2009 at 12:25 am

    … or the total silence when filmmaker and satirist Theo van Gogh gets stabbed to death on the street by a moslim who told the judge that he did so out of his beliefsystem.

    Even more disturbing, though, is how every television coverage of the murder on Dutch tv trivilised the murder and tried to sell to people that being murdered was a normal and forseeable and therefore self-inflicted outcome of being a satirist who didn’t shy away from telling muslims to stop bullying people.

26. Sailor says:

    July 16, 2009 at 12:32 am

    MyCatIsGod, I hope you read the original story (click on really). It is a question of proportion. You have President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad blaming Germany for the murder of one pregnant Egyptian woman, which they certainly did not want. While at home he thinks nothing of beating and imprisoning hundreds of political dissidents as well as killing quite a few. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

27. spoing says:

    July 16, 2009 at 4:06 am

    Your(her? just curious)catisgod: to suggest that an entire culture/people are barbarous and unenlightened would be way less tempting if there was more evidence that there exist significant numbers of enlightened, progressive, egalitarian people within that culture denouncing some of their nasty extremist excesses.

28. spoing says:

    July 16, 2009 at 4:22 am

    That said, let’s hear it for Germany handing the nutjob over to Mahmoud’s boys. That particular barbarous and unenlightened judicial system was made for people like him.

29. whatabastor says:

    July 16, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Hello everyone, I have recently translated this cartoon to Arabic. I linked and gave credit to this site and the Author asked me if I could write something here.

    I am an ex-muslim from Saudi of all places, and I can tell you that like everywhere and every religion, we’ve had our movements since… forever to abolish religion and show that there is none of that BS.

    With the internet many are writing, and many are becoming non-religious, here is a facebook group of those that consider themselves to be atheist
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=43033183777

    this is a list of all Arabic blogs which are opposed to religion
    http://new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=71491740779

    Now, I was just going to write something about me, but I am disappointed to see people who do not believe in religion want people (entire populations) to be wiped out… I am not going to add any more.

    However, I would like to thank the author and all those that are maintaining and adding the nice info that always keeps me and others coming back to see the humor in all the madness.

    Cheers

30. Ophelia Benson says:

    July 16, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    whatabastor – don’t be put off by Ayashi’s comment – that’s not typical here. In fact it’s quite peculiar.

    I don’t think anyone here wants to see entire populations, or individuals, wiped out.

    Good luck. Welcome.

31. Toast in the machine says:

    July 16, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    Hi Whatabastor. Thanks for the Facebook links – it is very encouraging to learn there is an atheist movement in Saudi. I’ve been impressed by Maryam Namazie for some time – though she is given very little airtime in the UK.

    I believe access to the original J&M has been progressively banned by muslim countries – I wish you success in keeping your translated version available – and continued anonymity from your country-men who might not appreciate it as you do.

32. Toast in the machine says:

    July 16, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    (Not that Maryam Namazie is Saudi of course. But she leads the Council of Ex-Muslims in Britain).

33. Godless not gormless says:

    July 16, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    @MyCatIsGod

    “Surely descending to that level is the ultimate unenlightened, barbarous state?”

    You are over reacting. A bit like muslims do. In fact you sound like you’re a sympathiser which I think is crazy. So, I suppose you were referring to my comment about making the arabs rich. I was reffering to the fact that saudi arabs fund mosque building in every country they can outside of islamic countries in order to spread islam and in the hope of acheiving a global caliphate. They then fund hate preachers to speak in these mosques, preaching that us non muslims are vile, just like the koran says. They also fund islamic schools to teach children that jews and xtians are pigs and monkeys and of course that non muslims are vile, just like the koran says.

    This is funded by arabs states where they have too much money, earned from their trading with the west. I hardly think that commenting on this makes me barbaric. Beheading people, lopping off limbs, public floggings etc, these things are barbaric. islamic teachings are biggoted and full of hatred, yet if we criticise we are barbaric?

    I don’t think so

34. Godless not gormless says:

    July 16, 2009 at 10:52 pm

    Ophelia and others,

    Where did Ayashi, or anyone else for that matter, mention anything about wanting to see “entire populations, or individuals, wiped out.”? How did we get into this? The first mention of this seems to be from whatabastor, I can see nothing close to this in any other posts.

35. Ophelia Benson says:

    July 17, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    Godless – I didn’t say Ayashi did say that. Read my comment again. I urged whatabastor not to be put off and then I said I didn’t think anyone here wants to see whole populations wiped out.

36. lluminatus says:

    July 18, 2009 at 6:33 am

    There’s such an abundance of intellect here…phew

37. Godless not gormless says:

    July 18, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Ophelia,

    I think YOU need to read your comment again and you will see that it quite definitely implies that this is exactly what Ayashi meant. Maybe you need to be more careful about how you word your comments. I don’t even know what there is in Ayashi’s comments that would put any thinking person off anyway.

38. Guminadrag says:

    July 18, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    I have a feeling there’s a few important points missing here:

    – In most comments it looks as if everybody thought Muslims, Arabs and Iranians were the same. While it is true that most Arabs and many Iranians are Muslim, it is not definitely the case that Arabs and Iranians (or Persians as many prefer to be called) are the same. It’s really important to remember that, as the two gropus are usually far less than friendly with respect to each other.

    – In Farsi “Death to xxx” is much weaker than the translation into English – more accurate would be “Down with xxx”.

    – Ahmadinejad is a populist idiot and not very representative of the majority of Iranians.

    – http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-how-to-spot-a-lame-lame-argument-1667373.html

    @Godless not gormless:
    “I was reffering to the fact that saudi arabs fund mosque building in every country they can outside of islamic countries in order to spread islam and in the hope of acheiving a global caliphate. They then fund hate preachers to speak in these mosques, preaching that us non muslims are vile, just like the koran says. They also fund islamic schools to teach children that jews and xtians are pigs and monkeys and of course that non muslims are vile, just like the koran says”

    It’s such a major generalisation that I really don’t know where to begin, but let’s try. It’s not only the Saudis that fund mosques, in general you score a lot of points for the afterlife if you do build a mosque so many Muslims who have enough money do it – it just happens that many rich Muslims come from Saudi Arabia, but not only. As for the global caliphate, Islam has a lot of social rules and Muslims believe that if everyone was a Muslim the world would be a place without wars, crime etc. Ok, this is great stuff for J and Mo, rather Utopian and quite often plain silly, but if you believe in that then wanting to implement it all over the world surely can’t be taken against you, at least if you don’t want to do it by force, as is in fact the case with most Muslims – you just never hear about them, because, surprisingly, they’re not the ones who blow themselves up.

    There’s also that thing with pigs and monkeys. There is nothing in the Quran that states Jews and Christians are pigs and monkeys, it is a common misinterpretation of the suras 7:166, 2:65 and 5:60 which state that God (on one occasion) turned some unrepentant Jews into pigs and apes (NB if you read Terry Pratchett you might know a distinction between monkeys and apes can be very, very important). No, it is not a nice thing to do, but hey, we’re talking about a monotheistic God here. Tell me when you find a nice monotheistic God that doesn’t do nasty stuff to people who don’t believe in him. And actually it is not the non-muslims who are vile, according to the Quran, but polytheists only, Jews and Christians are kind of cool in many places. No, it’s not nice either, but, again, it is organised religion. Come to Poland one day (I’m Polish) and see what some of the Catholic priests preach here about Jews and you won’t believe your ears. Or what the Orthodox Jews in Israel say sometimes.

    All of the above can be summed up in one sentence: don’t blame it on Muslims, blame it on organised religion. I know many Arabs, Iranians and Muslims (European and non-European) – I lived in Yemen for two years and travelled around Iran for a month – who themselves are great, open-minded people. And Westerners could learn a lot from many of them, especially in terms of hospitality, friendliness and social values. When was the last time a total stranger stopped doing everything he was doing to show you around his city and invite you to stay and eat in his house indefinitely? Go to Yemen, and, despite the bad reputation it has in the press, I can guarantee it will happen to you within the first two days of your stay there.

39. MyCatIsGod says:

    July 18, 2009 at 9:09 pm

    @Toast in the Machine

    Fair point, yourself. And I’m very open to the idea that I might have misinterpreted what (our wonderful) Author was saying. But it does still strike me as rather ambiguous. But no matter, really, and the overall point about the mismatch between some Muslims’ reactions to single, isolated events and to what we would see as catastrophes, is very well made. And is something I saw time and again when I lived in the Middle East (one exception, though: the Muslim world’s reaction to events in Israel/Palestine is always strong, and a genuine mass movement against what are seen as large scale political and military injustices there. But let’s not even begin to get into that particular debate here..!!)

    @Guminadrag

    Very nicely put. I value this comment page when like-minded people (i.e. people who don’t believe in god(s) – I like that phrase too, ) have nice, sensible conversations, and share their experiences. And some fun along the way too, of course. But I’ve been getting a bit worried the last few months at how a few (the minority, to be sure) comments are leaning further and further away from playfulness and rational thought, towards what could be termed spitefulness and aggression (qualities that, ironically, we decry in the religious). I was unskilfully trying to talk about that in my own post, but you did it rather better. Just because we’re all atheists, it doesn’t mean we know everything, or should have our ‘own’ set of dogma and ideology about stuff. For me, atheism means exactly the opposite to that.

    As an aside, I also lived in Yemen (for three years) and had the time of my life. I fell in love with that wonderful country, its amazing people, and its often inspiring culture. There were things, horrible things, I hated too – usually linked to religious brainwashing and ignorance. But that, for me, could never wipe out all those positive experiences I had.

    I strongly dislike Islam (and all the other organised religions). But I love Arabs and Arab culture. For me, that’s not trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

    (I also love Poles, btw – one particular one, in fact 🙂 Can’t get the hang of your language, though, no matter how much I try. It makes French and Arabic look like child’s play…)

40. JohnnieCanuck says:

    July 19, 2009 at 12:43 am

    It’s not only Muslims that fund houses of worship in other countries. It’s a very popular Christian pastime, as well. In fact, I’ve seen brochures soliciting funds to help set up covert Christian ministries in places where they acknowledge the locals will destroy churches if they find out.

    Given their common ancestry, there’s no surprise in finding that proselytizing is encouraged by Islam and Christianity in similar ways. The Great Commission of the New Testament says it all.

    If you truly believe that family, friends, anyone you know are faced with the heaven/hell scenario; how could you not beg, plead and threaten them into the right choice? When I think of it, it’s kind of a condemnation of any such follower if they accept that others face eternal torture but won’t make whatever effort it takes to save them.

    Actually, of course, I’m glad that so few do. It’s always awkward getting them to stop without hurting their feelings. I just know that they really don’t want to hear that they are victims of wishful thinking from me.

    ps Nice post, Guminadrag.

41. Godless not gormless says:

    July 19, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    @Guminadrag

    Firstly, my statement was not “such a major generalisation”. I was under the impression that people reading this post would realise that I was talking about rich saudi arab muslims and that arab non muslims would more than likely not be involved in the funding of mosques. It was not meant to be a critisism of all arabs, just those mentioned above. Also, I am aware that arab muslims do this but I don’t know about others so I can hardly accuse people of that if I don’t know for sure.

    Secondly, mosque building may well earn brownie points but that is not the only reason it is carried out. It is about spreading islam to places where people don’t want it and it’s about the conquest of infidel lands. Are you defending this practice? You seem to be with your next point about the global caliphate:

    “Islam has a lot of social rules and Muslims believe that if everyone was a Muslim the world would be a place without wars, crime etc. Ok, this is great stuff for J and Mo, rather Utopian and quite often plain silly, but if you believe in that then wanting to implement it all over the world surely can’t be taken against you”

    Yes it can. You seem to be suggesting that this is ok because they are only trying to ‘do us all a favour’. Well I can do without ‘favours’ like that! I would be happier if they had the capacity to understand that everyone has a choice, but they don’t as this is not allowed in islam. As for most muslims not wanting to convert us by force, I can’t believe you are suggesting this! By trying to outbreed us in our own countries and then voting in an islamic government (when there are enough of them this is what will happen and this is the plan) who will then implement islamic law for all and relegate those of us who refuse to convert, to dhimmi status (those who have not been executed that is), is this not still taking over by force? I think so.

    Next, the pigs and monkeys thing. You can tell us we are misinterpreting the koran all you want. You can even tell us that some muslims are misinterpreting the koran, but all this is irrelevant because this IS going on. Not only that, but in the undercover film I watched, none of the hate preachers were challenged by any of the muslims in these mosques. I can only assume the reason for this is that fact that the koran makes it quite clear that these hate preachers are correct, as least as far as islam is concerned, in their opinions of non believers. It can’t possibly be, though you might want to claim this, that they are just respecting the right of these retards to free speach.

    Next:

    “actually it is not the non-muslims who are vile, according to the Quran, but polytheists only”

    Not true. The koran states

    [8.55] Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve

    I am also sure that I read in one version “non believers are the vilest of men”

    This does not say “polytheists are vile but jews, xtians are quite cool” What about other people, Atheists for instance. Does the koran say we are cool too? I don’t think so!

    Next,

    “Come to Poland one day (I’m Polish) and see what some of the Catholic priests preach here about Jews and you won’t believe your ears. Or what the Orthodox Jews in Israel say sometimes.”

    I would agree that it’s not just islam that is guilty of this. The old testament is a vile book too and, let’s face it, all religions preach that they are right and everyone else is wrong. When any of them are up against another religion which is claiming that it is right, they will get upset at this and start issuing insults. This is religion. It is divisive and hateful. I agree and I understand this, but this post was about islam, hence my comments were specifically about islam.

    If you know the koran like you want us to believe you do (and I would never claim to be an expert myself), you will know that a huge amount of it is dedicated to making it perfectly clear to muslims that non mulims are not equal to muslims and that we are hated by allah, who just can’t wait to get his filthy hands on us when we die so he can torture us to his hearts content. I think I am right in saying that no other religious book goes to quite the extent that the koran does in this respect, though I repeat, I am no expert.

    As for your last bit about how nice muslims are compared to the rest of us, this is not a fair comment. I have gone out of my way on many occasions to help visitors to my country and I am usually very friendly to these people and to strangers generally. I also have to say that the Thai people I met on my travels were extremely friendly and helpful too. I am not too well travelled but most places I have been I have met friendly people. Try telling this theory of yours to the relatives of those who, having travelled to iraq to help iraqis and to protest about the invasion, were kidnapped at gunpoint and had their heads sawn off live on the internet.

    There are many more examples of westerners being kidnapped and murdered and there are many examples of travellers being murdered in other countries by non muslims too, but not because their religion told them they should do it I suspect.

    The friendliness you experienced was not anything to do with islam, which makes it perfectly clear that muslims should not make friends with non believers, but had everything to do with those people being humans. I agree that islam is the problem, but lets not start making out that muslims are better people than anyone else. You will find that level of hospitality in many other countries and cultures not only with muslims but you will not find it with many strict muslims.

42. Intelligent Designer says:

    July 28, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    @Guminadrag, Toast in the Machine, Ophelia, Johnnie, Whatabastor and MyCatIsGod: Great discussion, keeping it hate free for a more enlightening read. Thanks all!