So childish. Kudos to Judas though.

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Discussion (82)¬

  1. ANDREA says:

    I believe this point was made in ‘Jesus Christ Superstar’.

  2. Max T Furr says:

    Hah! “God’s plan.” That’s one set of my favorite arguments about biblical inconsistencies and beliefs that have no effect on any evangelical with whom I’ve argued.

    And there is, of course, another angle. If god had a plan for the course of human history, then how could it be that It regretted having made man? Couldn’t an omniscient, omnipitent god see the future that It planned? It actually planned for man to have other gods and act against his will and commandments (even though he’d never given his commandments to any other “nation” but “his people,” the Israelites) so he would “grieve in his heart” and then in anger kill them all except Noah and family?

    So, from eternity past, It saw itself making a plan to make a plan in which It could foresee itself become angry and disappointed so that It could drown them all out like rats and saving only one family?


  3. Mark says:

    And by Leon Rosselson in his song “Stand up for Judas” Good point, though

  4. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Did you know that Judas had a business selling vehicles to Romans?
    It was called ‘Judas’s Chariots’.

  5. misanthropope says:

    this discussion is the reward one gets for knocking on my door and trying to lecture me about the soul fairy. there is no version of the fairy tale which doesn’t include a variation of “god had to…” which is KIND OF FUCKIN PROBLEMATIC if you’re representing that your invisible friend is omnipotent, right? and what if god didn’t “have to”? that makes the whole episode nothing but kinky masturbation.

  6. jb says:

    Stevie Smith wrote a number of very elegant and pointed poems about Christianity in general and the “suffering” of Jesus in particular, e.g., Was He Married?. Brief excerpt:

    Did he never feel strong
    Pain for being wrong?

    He was not wrong, he was right,
    He suffered from others’, not his own, spite.

    But there is no suffering like having made a mistake
    Because of being of an inferior make.

  7. M27Holts says:

    AOS. And moses had a motorbike….The roar of Moses’ TRIUMPH could be heard throughout Israel…

  8. Jesus F Iscariot says:

    Judas’s Chariots was boarded up by the tax people since he didn’t pay tax on thirty pieces of silver (worth a lot in 33AD dollars). A little shoppe called Cheeses of Nazareth bought the property.

  9. M27Holts says:

    Oh. Aye…Blessed are the cheese-makers…

  10. M27Holts says:

    And whats this kinky masturbation that somebody mentioned? How about upside down, dressed as Violet Elizabeth Bott whilst thinking of Anne Widdecombe?

  11. Kudos to Judas should be a rap.

  12. Mockingbird says:

    JFI – Allegedly, the new owner had some hang-ups.

  13. Mockingbird says:

    Mark – “And by Leon Rosselson in his song “Stand up for Judas” Good point, though”

    Did he also write “Sit down, sit down for Christ’s sake, the people at the back can’t see” ? –

  14. tfkreference says:

    C. S. Lewis mentioned Judas worshippers in The Screwtape Letters.

    Crucifiction Crucifiction Crucifiction Crucifiction

  15. Someone says:

    Even though I normally don’t care about Eurovision, the story about the Cyprus Orthodox Church trying to ban a song called El Diablo, about an abusive relationship, because it supposedly promotes active Satan worship and threatens the culture and faith of the nation by being included in the contest is both hilarious and goddamn frustrating to read.
    Leave it to religious assholes with the narrowest of minds to ruin art without any concept of metaphor, like always. I haven’t heard the song (I’ve only read about the content) and it doesn’t appear to be my kind of music anyhow, but I hope it stays. I hope those shits at the Holy Synod scream until they’re blue in the face and their heads explode.

  16. M27Holts says:

    Someone…did you mention Art and Eurovision in the same sentence…I can remember being mildly interested when those long skirts were whipped off by bucks fizz…but that was a long time ago…it’s become a parody.of itself, complete with political scoring that has no bearing on the quality or musical integrity of the songs themselves…

  17. Anonymous says:

    M27Holts, even bad art is still art. As mentioned, it’s not to my taste and usually something that doesn’t register on my radar. In fact, the last time it did was when Lordi were getting buzz, and that’s because they made me think of Gwar. Decent stuff but nothing that would make me fork out cash for an album.
    Imagine if there was a band from Cyprus like that who wrote a song with that title actually celebrating the Devil in the way many rock bands are wont to do, and submitted it successfully. The Orthodoxy would have a fucking nuclear meltdown.
    It’s astounding that there are still European countries (Poland being another that springs to mind) that are so hypersensitive to blasphemy that even the mildest reference will get their panties in a twist.

  18. Mockingbird says:

    M27 says: ” And moses had a motorbike….The roar of Moses’ TRIUMPH could be heard throughout Israel”.

    And here’s the proof…https://www.jesusandmo.net/?s=quest

  19. samhuff says:

    M27Holts says:
    March 3, 2021 at 6:35 pm
    Oh. Aye…Blessed are the cheese-makers…

    For they shall lead the whey!

  20. Dave K says:

    “Stand Up For Judas” by Leon Rosselson, as mentioned by Mark:


  21. Someone says:

    Don’t know why my reply came through as Anonymous, that’s weird.

  22. Martin Benson says:

    @tfkreference – I hate to be pedantic (well, actually, I don’t really), but I’ve just done a search through “The Screwtape Letters” on Gutenberg, and Judas isn’t mentioned at all. Perhaps one of C S Lewis’s other books?

  23. M27Holts says:

    Someone. The frightening thing is the way the european liberals have sort of sleep-walked us into the cul-de-sac of wokedom which seemingly has a conflict of interests where religious dogma seems to trump logical abhorrence of human stupidity as not being part of that stupidity…the get out of jail card of religious faith seen as a taboo subject to approach…

  24. Succubus ov Satan says:

    Does xianity have a point regardless?

  25. Shaughn says:

    There is a tradition claiming that Judas was crucified instead of Jesus, performing the act of ‘greater love hath no man &c’. Carefully kept out of canonized scripture, of course.

    Anyhow, the Gospel of Judas makes exactly Author’s point

  26. jb says:

    Shaughn — Is there really such a tradition? Do you have any links? Jorge Luis Borges wrote a well known short story, Three Versions of Judas, which has Judas as the actual son of God and redeemer, who redeems man by accepting eternal damnation for himself, because a few hours on the cross would hardly have been enough. But I’ve never heard of any real life historical tradition which has Judas being crucified rather than Jesus.

  27. M27Holts says:

    JB. Why get embroiled in such a pointless argument about some clearly fictional characters in a story that is one of the biggest whoppers perpetrated upon homo sapiens….crucifiction is correct…nailed on…tis all a tissue of lies…

  28. Rrr says:

    M27Holts: I imagine I actually remember that scene with the lost skirt even though it’s been many years since watching the bizarre festival. It was the beautiful, funny and talented singer Lill Lindfors who got to be a presenter and the costumer (no, not customer this time!) made a stage suit with a loose thread that could unravel the whole item and utterly transform it.

    Her name was actually used in curing another great artist, songwriter and poet, Beppe Wolgers, from his stuttering handicap. A friend gave him cues to which Beppe would respond in a stutter, and so giving the correct pronounciation. One of those was: “You know, the singer, Lindfors?” and the reply was: “Lill Lindfors, yes of course!” So he overcame his problem and became a much loved TV personality.

    Also it is ironic if Cyprus of all nations is against Heavy Metal. Tommy Steele is so passé. Maybe Meta-Heavy-Metal Irony? But who will be Lead? Glen Gould? Cut a Platinum; plays nonstop on Nickelodeon for sure.

  29. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    Rrr, Holts was referring to Bucks Fizz in the 1981 Eurovision. At the beginning of their performance of Making Your Mind Up, the two women were wearing long skirts which the men whipped off early in the routine to reveal that the women were actually wearing short-skirted dresses.
    Awful routine for an awful song from an awful group, but cheesy enough to win the bloody competition that year.
    Lindfors’ skirt stunt was four years later.

  30. mh says:

    Judas is the only apostle I respect, he turned in a traitor even though he was his friend, and then was the only one who felt bad enough about the situation to kill himself. He only profited 30 pieces of silver, the rest wanted to start a religion, where the real money is.

    There’s also a George R.R. Martin story, “The Way of Cross and Dragon”, where a serial heretic creates a gospel of Judas as secret superhero betrayed by “St” Peter.

  31. Troubleshooter says:

    I’m with you, Mo. Jesus had a bad weekend for your sins. Big freaking whoop!

  32. misanthropope says:

    Judas’s behavior really only makes any sense if the new testament is the story of a love triangle.

  33. Rob Barnett says:

    AOS. Aye 1981, good call. I remember I was playing with my new Hitachi music system. I was watching the tele with the sound off whilst listening to “Selling England by the Pound” by Genesis….but at 16, the two doris of bucks fizz were of high interest to me. They won on the gimmick I reckon as you said the song was piss poor….

  34. Shaughn says:

    jb – there is. You’ll find it in the Gospel of Barnabas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas); Islam denies Jesus’ crucifixion at all. (https://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/crucifixion_of_judas.htm)

  35. Rrr says:

    AoS: Thanks! Even then I was not a devout follower of the song contest, but in those days there was not much else to watch on the sillybox. Now, it’s more like I avoid watching anything at all during the overlong Eurovision season because of all those popup jingles destroying suspense in programs that might have been worthwhile. Imports, because so much public service funding has gone into this and other sports competitions that none is left to produce quality.

    The fervor has become like a sect.

  36. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    There’s a Eurovision season? That’s disturbing.

  37. Laripu says:

    Ophelia, you wrote, “Kudos to Judas should be a rap.” You’re right. Or even a folk song. Or … I wish Leonard Cohen had written it.

    While we’re waiting for that, I’ll listen to my ancient copy of “Sympathy for the Devil” on the Rolling Stones LP “Beggar’s Banquet”.

    I got that LP in 1969, a Bar Mitzvah gift from my then 23-year-old brother. He always had a subtle sense of humor. 🙂

    I wore the damn thing out, playing it over and over on my crummy mono record player. It was the only LP I had, for years.

  38. Rrr says:

    AoS: Exactly! Stuff fills the channel from Feb to May or whenever. Coop runs ad campaigns for taco kits and potato chips till it comes out of one’s ears. (Figuratively.)

  39. Son of Glenner says:

    Laripu: I too like that Stones track: “Sympathy for the Devil”. In my YA years, I was a fan of BOTH the Beatles AND the Stones, at a time when most of my contemporaries were into only one of them and hated the other one. I also like Beethoven, Britten, Hendrix, Mahler, Puccini, Rossini, Stravinsky, Strauss, Verdi, Wagner, and a few others.

    I suppose you could call me ecumenical in my musical tastes.

    I generally managed to avoid seeing the Eurovision Song Contest!

  40. M27Holts says:

    SOG. I like Mussorgski, Risky-corsetsoff and bark and a bit of rac-man-it-toff…but mostly listen to prog rock, prog metal, tech metal and a bit of death-metal growling as it pisses off the wife… 🙂

  41. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    All this talk of music and not a mention of the legend of all legends – Des o’Connor. Bloody philistines, the lot of you.

    As Eric Morecambe once said in tribute to the great man, “He has a new album out: it’s called Des o’Connor Sings….allegedly“.

  42. Laripu says:

    I was wondering how Jesus could tell that Mo was saying crucifiction instead of crucifixion.

    Then it dawned on me: either he’s the son of god with magical powers OR he’s a fictional character imbued with that abilitiy by Author.

    Could be either way, right? 😉

    Son of Glenner, I liked all the ones you mentioned plus lots of American blues. Muddy Waters poured me Champagne on my 18th birthday. A friend and I once got drunk with Junior Wells, after a show, a few months later.

    I’ve also loved the music of Elvis Costello (except the horrible Juliet Letters), Lyle Lovett, Rickie Lee Jones, and every record by Leonard Cohen from “I’m Your Man” onward. (And all his written work.)

    There’s a UK folksinger I used to like but haven’t heard from since I moved to the US, because I think he doesn’t tour here: Rory McLeod.

  43. M27Holts says:

    I think it’s fair to say that musically everybody on here are acceptibly incompatible…Acceptible incompatibilty is good I reckon… 🙂

  44. M27Holts says:

    And AOS…the late great Eric Morcambe to Andre Previn whilst sat at the piano. “I was playing all the right notes but not necassarily in the right order…”

  45. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: Acceptably Incompatible or Comfortably Numb?

  46. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    One of Eric’s finest lines, Holts. Another comedy great of the time was Les Dawson. I could always tell when my mother-in-law was coming to visit; the mice started throwing themselves onto the traps.

  47. Deimos says:

    According to your timestamp your last post is from 20 minutes in the future.

    Frak me

  48. Deimos says:

    Ahh I see the problem now, we are all an hour in the future.

    J&M is very advanced.

  49. Son of Glenner says:

    Deimos: Western European standard time?

  50. M27Holts says:

    SOG…aha the floyd classic and a good solo by Gilmour…my favourite is all about crazy sid barrett…the crazy diamond… 🙂 tho I also like Animals and Echoes..

  51. Mockingbird says:

    The tossers at Microsoft force a calendar onto my laptop that tells me that March 17 is ST PATRICK’S DAY.

    WTF anyone wants to know that, they don’t say but it cannot be deleted. Why are so called internet providers fucking up our laptops?

  52. M27Holts says:

    Get some Guinness down you and get with the craic 🙂 i am having covid jab #1 today…..

  53. Mockingbird says:

    They’re injecting you with GUINNESS ???

  54. Mockingbird says:

    They’re injecting you with GUINNESS ??? 🙂

  55. Son of Glenner says:

    Mockingbird: If it’s good enough for J & M to drink at the old Cock and Bull pub, or from cans at home, it’s good enough for vaccinating M27Holts!

  56. Mockingbird says:

    SoG – B’Jasus . . .Holly Mary, Jesus and Joseph, Mother of God and the little donkey.

    He’ll wake up in the morning and find his self DEAD.

  57. Son of Glenner says:

    Mockingbird: Do I detect a faint hint of anti-hibernian prejudice?

    BTW some of my best friends are Oirish.

  58. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: Oxford AstraZeneca or Pfizer BioNtech?

  59. Mockingbird says:

    Six posts back from this one you will see I posted the same message twice with a different avatar each time. This is impossible. So I guess you all want to know how I did it.

  60. Dr John the Wipper says:

    Music & SF combined; points to my favorite.

    The Moody Blues, album To our children’s children’s children.

    Starting with Higher and Higher (an homage to the first moon trip), the whole album is the story of a generations-long trip into infinity, getting more and more melancholical.

    After more than 50 years still my favorite.

  61. M27Holts says:

    I had the AstraZeneca jab…strangely I came home and have just decided to buy the full version of the microsoft expert developers edition…a snip at 750 beer vouchers… 🙂

  62. Son of Glenner says:

    M27Holts: I also had the AstraZeneca some weeks ago. Strangely enough, it did not make me want to buy any new software!

  63. Donn says:

    Just got back from my first dose, Pfizer. I could hear someone in line behind me inquiring if they could volunteer to trade their Pfizer for a Johnson & Johnson.

    I had to look up a slur on the Irish this morning – “Irish exit.” Turns out it’s also Swedish exit, Dutch exit, French exit … if you’re German, Polish exit. It’s just leaving without saying goodbye. Big deal. One investigation into this tracks it back to “French leave”, and indeed in other European languages it’s about the French. I suppose here in the US there just wasn’t any big wave of French immigration, so they’re seen as Europe’s problem.

  64. BobC says:

    Christianity is the most ridiculous cult ever invented.

  65. M27Holts says:

    I had the usual nay-sayers who told me that they dropped dead for a week after the AZ…I report , zero side effects…looks like the GMO’s are at one with my T-cells. They are all in my liver having a huge pre-battle piss up to boost morale…

  66. Rrr says:

    So, AZ stands for Ambulant Zombie? Are they walking about?

  67. M27Holts says:

    Aye. If you use an electron microscope on a north manchester lad’s blood you can clearly see the t-cells clad in rolled up jeans, oxblood docs, skinheads and scarves round each wrist that exclaim…”fuck off covid”…. 🙂

  68. Son of Glenner says:

    Donn: And of course there’s “British Exit”, usually abbreviated as “Brexit”. I blame Boris and his bus for that shooting-ourself-in-the-foot vote. At least we Scots were not taken in, (neither were the Northern Irish!) but we were dragged out by the sort of English people who had the most to lose from Brexit, but were still conned into voting for it.

  69. M27Holts says:

    Aye, as far as brexit was concerned I was not equiped with enough knowledge of the economic ramifications of exit so I went for status quo and voted to stay in. A lot of the electorate are possibly even more incapable of understanding complex economic scenarios than I am, but chose to follow the herd. There was always pros and cons with stay or leave….but I think we would be better off in the common market but with some more control over some of the more ludicrous super-state legal red-tape.

  70. Acolyte of Sagan says:

    One only has to see the winners of tv ‘talent’ shows to know that allowing the great unwashed to vote is a lousy idea. We’d be no worse off deciding issues on the toss of a coin.

  71. Donn says:

    If everyone did it, though, eventually the societies that do a good job educating the masses to inculcate judgement and critical thinking would rise to the top, don’t you think? It’s got to be possible, and so necessary.

  72. M27Holts says:

    Aye Donn. You need to ban religious schools first. A lot of kids are influenced at the important stage of their brain development before rational thinking is then used to try and bail them out later…stop the indoctrination is the first step to a lot better world…

  73. Laripu says:

    M27Holts, religions are mostly a symptom, although they can become a cause occasionally.

    They are a symptom of the distribution of intelligence. See https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/iqtable.aspx

    Looking at the SD 15 column the percentage of the population from IQ 80 to IQ 105 is approximately 54%. Nothing can be done about that. No amount of education can fix it. Smart people are a minority. Very smart people are a tiny minority.

    There was a time when dull normals deferred to authority and knew their place. That hasn’t been the case since the 60s. Mass communications, including the internet, have made the disruption worse.

    I expect traditional established religions to lose ground and following. I expect even stupider ideas to take hold, and their proponents to increase in power. e.g. QAnon.

  74. M27Holts says:

    We did an IQ test in college as well as a vocabulary test. I think I got 137…but then again I have always liked doing cryptic crosswords, sudoku (tho I developed a program in C to do it for me once I got stuck…) and playing chess. I reckon those sort of train your minds for IQ test type puzzles…

  75. M27Holts says:

    Laripu. I have been home schooling my grandson (aged 3.75 years). He attends a catholic nursery school. During the 1/2 hour zoom schooling call. The teacher opens with a pile of catholic tosh…I bite my tongue. I reckon they should concentrate on reading/writing/calculus and stop filling his head with nonsense… 🙂

  76. Donn says:

    I doubt the quality we’re looking for is really captured by the classic IQ measure. We know people whose intelligence is apparently quite acute when it’s exercised, but that doesn’t always happen when it needs to.

    Scientists who are infected with nutty ideas – have we mentioned Penrose recently? Think he’s a moron? Well, who knows if there’s an answer for that exact problem, but anyway I am confident that much improved critical thinking is easily within reach of the very ordinary intellect of the general population, if you start them early.

    Ask someone else how to do it, though, but I bet the problem is as much that “we” don’t particularly thrill to the idea of the general population developing a keen sense of critical thought. I remember reading, half a century ago, about class exercises that started with a few minutes of TV, and then a discussion of what those minutes were trying to sell you and how it was done. Priceless, but subversive and I have never heard about any such thing since.

    (And of course there’s a Monty Python episode if you like – I’m not going to dig it up – housewives discuss Sartre.)

  77. Teabag says:

    Monty Python should have formed a political party.

  78. M27Holts says:

    Donn. The “Deus ex Machina” theory (consciousness) of Penrose is clearly based on mathematics as opaque as that of string theory. If it is as impossible to test as string theory then it is simply “not even wrong”….Penrose should have concentrated on something more practical perhaps…

  79. samhuff says:

    The smarter you are the better you are at defending your unsupportable ideas.

    IIUC QAnon is just YACC (yet another Christian cult).

  80. Teabag says:

    Is Monty Python a political Party?

  81. Tebirkes says:

    Jesus and Mo, while they don’t seem to have an intimate relationship, do live together, share a bed, books, & newspapers, squabble over petty things, etc., and seem more interested in fighting with the barmaid than flirting with her. So they are ‘shacked-up’ and – presumably, unless ostracized by family – would have relatives visiting. Miracling them into re-existence as convenient, I suppose. How would Mo react to his Jewish ‘spiritual in-laws’, Joseph and Mary? Or Jesus to Mo’s child-bride, if she showed up one day and hogged the gaming console? Just curious …


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