Discussion (21)¬

1. Steve Sherman says:

   September 11, 2019 at 1:01 pm

   I can’t find another source, either, and The Times is published by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp. This doesn’t automatically mean the story is inaccurate, but it doesn’t inspire confidence, either.

2. CliffB says:

   September 11, 2019 at 1:21 pm

   Well, here’s the preparatory document:

   http://www.synod.va/content/synod/it/attualita/synod-for-the-amazon–preparatory-document–amazonia–new-paths-.html

   And here is the attack on it from Cardinals Muller and Brandmuller:

   https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/peruvian-cardinal-defends-amazon-synod-agenda-after-attacks-m-ller-brandm-ller

   Knee-jerk disbelief of straightforward reportage in perfectly respectable newspapers because of who owns them is ridculous. Is Murdoch so omnipresent and omniscient that he can sub-edit everything that appears in all his papers?

3. Marcus says:

   September 11, 2019 at 2:17 pm

   I have always been amused at the Christian insistence on being monotheistic; apart from the holy trinity, there is the Mary and whole host of saints and angels up there, not forgetting of course the devil all of which meet the definition of being gods. Apollo, Zeus et al have nothing on this lot.

4. raymondm says:

   September 11, 2019 at 2:28 pm

   “Pope ‘on path to allowing worship of spirits’ | World | The Times”

   Absurd. Absolutely absurd. Impossible.”Pray to,” maybe. “Worship”? Never.

5. raymondm says:

   September 11, 2019 at 2:44 pm

   I’ve just read through the links provided by CliffB. Nowhere is there mention of “worshipping spirits.” The old cardinals seem most incensed by the idea of ordaining old married men and giving a ministerial role to women.

   Since I’d have to have a subscription to read the whole Times article, I don’t know what the headline is referring to. But it is, as I said above. absurd.

   Cui bono?

6. CliffB says:

   September 11, 2019 at 3:22 pm

   I’d have thought ‘praying to’ involves worship. There seems little point praying to a deity that you don’t think capable of effecting what you pray for.

7. jb says:

   September 11, 2019 at 3:31 pm

   CliffB — The official Catholic position is that praying to saints for intercession with God is different from worshiping saints. The former is allowed, the latter is heretical.

   It’s a fine line that can easily be crossed. In fact some Protestant authors have argued that Europe was not a Christian continent for most of its history, because its population mostly consisted of ignorant peasants whose folk religion was in fact a pagan worship of Mary and the saints.

8. jb says:

   September 11, 2019 at 3:46 pm

   Also, while ordaining women would be a sharp deviation from traditional Catholic practice, the Catholic Church already ordains married men on a regular basis, and has done so for hundreds of years. I continue to be surprised that this fact is not more widely known, especially among people who express opinions about priestly celibacy.

9. Troubleshooter says:

   September 11, 2019 at 3:51 pm

   “Because there is no place in the Catholic Church for superstitious nonsense.”

   In other words, there is no place in the Catholic Church for the dogma, doctrine and diktat of the Catholic Church. The RCC is self-refuting??? HOOBOY!

10. PeterN says:

    September 11, 2019 at 4:29 pm

    This is what I get when looking for another source about pope and spirits
    https://www.yelp.ca/biz/pope-liquor-store-medford

11. CliffB says:

    September 11, 2019 at 4:39 pm

    Interestingly, several popes have been married (Adrian II had a wife living when he became pope) including, most intestingly of all, the apostle Peter who was directly appointed to be his successor (the first pope) by Jesus, we are told.

12. Darwin Harmless says:

    September 11, 2019 at 5:06 pm

    I find it hard to emotionally engage in any dogma dispute among the Catholics. The core of their religion is so absurd, starting with transubstantiation, but even before that the idea that their god sent us his son so that we could kill him and thus escape the wrath he was feeling toward us because of our sins. I mean, come on, folks. Who can care what these idiots decide is a fit subject for worship or veneration? It’s like trying to find some reality in the ramblings of a schizophrenic drunk.
    If there’s no place in the Catholic church for superstitious nonsense, it follows that there is no Catholic church.

13. CliffB says:

    September 11, 2019 at 6:30 pm

    Who can engage emotionally with superstition? And, let’s be honest, all religion is merely institutionalised superstition.

    It is fun to be a spectator, though, and watch them tie themselves in knots trying to justify their position or extricate themselves from where they end up.

14. two cents' worth says:

    September 11, 2019 at 7:32 pm

    PeterN, thanks for the link to the Pope Liquor store’s Web site. Their ad for Redemption Rye made me smile 🙂 .

15. two cents' worth says:

    September 11, 2019 at 7:40 pm

    raymondm – thanks for confirming that the Preparatory Document for the Synod for the Amazon (http://www.synod.va/content/synod/it/attualita/synod-for-the-amazon–preparatory-document–amazonia–new-paths-.html) makes no mention of worshipping spirits. I had time to just skim the document, but it seemed to me like the Pope is looking for ways to inveigle the people in the Amazon region to become Roman Catholics. These ways include incorporating Amazonian customs into Roman Catholicism–the way it already includes Easter eggs, celebrating Christmas instead of Yule or the Solstice, etc. Cardinals Muller and Brandmuller are upset because the Document mentions the possibility of ordaining older married men as priests and creating an official ministry that can be conferred upon women. While these changes are opposed by conservative RCs, they would be welcomed by many RCs, not only in the Amazon region, but around the world. The Pope may decide that these changes are necessary to slow the decrease of the RC population. I’m sure he doesn’t want the RCs to end up like the Shakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers ).

16. two cents' worth says:

    September 11, 2019 at 7:42 pm

    CliffB, I take your point about saints. As I understand it, the official doctrine is that saints are like your friends at the royal court (or today’s lobbyists). God is the King, and you pray to the saints when you want them to intercede with Him on your behalf. (My mom calls this “storming heaven with prayers.”) Like a request to a courtier, a typical prayer to a saint starts with flattery, so they’ll want to help you. (For example, see the Hail Mary, at https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=217 .) However, some RCs do ask the saints for help with minor things (rather than asking the saints to get God to help them). One popular prayer is “St. Anthony, St. Anthony, please look around, something is lost and cannot be found. Amen.” Your lost keys are too trivial to bother God with, so you ask St. Anthony for help instead. Praying to a saint in this way may be technically heretical, but I’ve never heard of it getting anyone in trouble with the Church.

17. Michael says:

    September 12, 2019 at 12:06 am

    Do you know what’s weirder than an adult with an imaginary friend? One with an imaginary enemy.

18. CliffB says:

    September 12, 2019 at 2:01 pm

    Yes, the Christians have a lot of form for appropriating existing pagan customs and incorporating them into their own, and then selling them back to the natives. Christmas, wassailing, Easter, Yule all spring quickly to mind. This seems as if it go the same way.

19. Troubleshooter says:

    September 13, 2019 at 10:19 am

    CliffB, what is even more disturbing is the RCC’s current thrust into Africa, which has a long tradition of superstition and a dearth of education among the common people – a fertile field for them to proselytize and exploit. I don’t mind telling you, That PISSES ME OFF … and I don’t know by what mechanism they could be stopped. All I know is that I want to see them stopped.

20. Vanity Unfair says:

    September 15, 2019 at 6:13 pm

    Re the Times paywall:
    If you live in the UK it is likely that your local library subscribes to ProQuest which reprints the copy from lots of current newspapers. Most subscribing libraries make this available to home users via their websites. To access ProQuest you will need a library membership number, preferably your own. (Play the game.)
    If you live overseas, a VPN might circumvent this but that would be naughty. You would still need a fourteen-digit membership number beginning with 4 and a bit of luck with the ProQuest OS. I certainly do not recommend this course of action.

21. hotrats says:

    September 18, 2019 at 7:03 pm

    Amazingly, in Catholicism, superstition is a mortal sin. Who knew?