This is a fairly knowledgable lot of anti-theistic zealots (if that isn’t an oxymoron), so I have a question. Do any of you know of studies on the impact of religion on the rise & particularly the fall of civilisations? My naive conjecture – which I’d like to beef-up a bit – is that religion formalises and concentrates much societal power in rigid structures that can’t adapt to change, thus failing to meet new challenges to the society. Neoliberal greed isn’t challenged by fundamentalist Xtianity, but rather seems coupled to it, enabling it, and thus to be ringing in the end of American democracy, equal rights, gender equality, due process – the whole shebang.
It isn’t that I’m too lazy to do a Google (Duck Duck Go) search, but you all might be more useful than an AI-dismembered answer.
@Mockingbird – well, yes, it is. But I’m a scientist by training, and connecting two data points to make a predictive line is a ‘no-no’. More data points, please. The ancient Roman Empire, which collapsed and sort of morphed into the Catholic Church? Hindus and their cast system, excluding the brilliance and experience of a huge swath of their population? Australian Aborigines meeting the British with their ‘only one of our war party can kill’ rule?
It sounds like the question has broadened, from the effect of religion per se, to the viability of perhaps the entire social structure. For which I think religion can’t entirely take the blame/credit.
For effect of religion on viability, I’d look at fundamental resilience and qualities of that nature. When society has to change, has to admit they were wrong, etc. Like Germany, Japan … the slave holders and the colonial powers … There are places where you can see some cracks, aren’t there? Is religion making a difference?
Eric Hoffer, in “The True Believer” noted that religions, in their fanatical founding phase, are entirely capable of radical innovation. In fact that’s what the fanaticism is for. But eventually true belief coagulates into fixed dogma, after they have won control.
And…stop filling childrens heads with garbage and insisting it’s TRUE. By all means tell them imaginative fictional stories, but double down on the fact thats ITS FUCKING FICTION…oh and make all clerics wear clown outfits….problem solved….
Well, sure, it isn’t surprising to see religions sticking to their dogma, as there aren’t a whole lot of external inputs. That said, I expect it wouldn’t be hard to see the widely subscribed religions shifting on various points over the years. Christian sects probably aren’t going to revise their trinity doctrines etc., but they’ve come up with ways to skate around science findings that they used to butt into, there are woman ministers, Of course, making friends with the power structure.
I’m not seeing this as fatal sclerosis. I’d be surprised if anyone cares about the trinity.
There might be a story for Islam. I mean, obviously it’s still around, but the Islamic world was a center of learning etc. half millennium ago, and it isn’t now – that civilization essentially collapsed and was substantially replaced on a European model. Islam must have played a major role in that. I read that the Wahhabi sect began in the 18th century; before that, spreading of the Shia sect. But also Ottomans, Mongols, etc. Empires are bound to collapse, and maybe it’s a miracle if the associated civilization lives through it.
By the way, another reported example of religion having negative survival value – from wikipedia article on Cambyses II, son of Cyrus the Great.
According to one author, Cambyses was able to defeat the Egyptians by putting cats, sheep, dogs and other animals that the Egyptians considered sacred in the front lines. This led the Egyptians to cease using their engines of war for fear of killing an animal and angering the gods.
That’s just an example of using a value system in war, not unique to religion. If instead of those common animals, you use human children as shields you’re more likely to have atheists back off from carpet bombing than religious governments.
The Secular humanists (of which I am a member) are trying to bash the bishop…get those tea-cosy wearing wankers out of the house of lords…in fact the unelected spunk monkies collective needs to be consigned to the annals of historic fuck-ups…
Since the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act,
Humanists UK were gobsmacked
That Lords Spiritual picks
From varied bishoprics
Would be prickless, and that is a fact.
Thanks for the info & feedback. Been in a coma for the last few days – helping my son with pre-engineering maths courses.
Eric Hoffer – a need to re-read!
“… religion can’t entirely take the entire blame/credit.” – There goes omnipotence (yet again).
Religion’s negative survival value – So, that must mean that if a civilisation/culture survives despite its strong religious tendencies, it must be very strong. Good to have a ‘biomarker’ for the might of a nation that isn’t weapons-based.
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Think she is just taking the piss…
This is a fairly knowledgable lot of anti-theistic zealots (if that isn’t an oxymoron), so I have a question. Do any of you know of studies on the impact of religion on the rise & particularly the fall of civilisations? My naive conjecture – which I’d like to beef-up a bit – is that religion formalises and concentrates much societal power in rigid structures that can’t adapt to change, thus failing to meet new challenges to the society. Neoliberal greed isn’t challenged by fundamentalist Xtianity, but rather seems coupled to it, enabling it, and thus to be ringing in the end of American democracy, equal rights, gender equality, due process – the whole shebang.
It isn’t that I’m too lazy to do a Google (Duck Duck Go) search, but you all might be more useful than an AI-dismembered answer.
tebirkes. Isn’t that all glowingly obvious, as it is here in UK?
@Mockingbird – well, yes, it is. But I’m a scientist by training, and connecting two data points to make a predictive line is a ‘no-no’. More data points, please. The ancient Roman Empire, which collapsed and sort of morphed into the Catholic Church? Hindus and their cast system, excluding the brilliance and experience of a huge swath of their population? Australian Aborigines meeting the British with their ‘only one of our war party can kill’ rule?
It sounds like the question has broadened, from the effect of religion per se, to the viability of perhaps the entire social structure. For which I think religion can’t entirely take the blame/credit.
For effect of religion on viability, I’d look at fundamental resilience and qualities of that nature. When society has to change, has to admit they were wrong, etc. Like Germany, Japan … the slave holders and the colonial powers … There are places where you can see some cracks, aren’t there? Is religion making a difference?
Eric Hoffer, in “The True Believer” noted that religions, in their fanatical founding phase, are entirely capable of radical innovation. In fact that’s what the fanaticism is for. But eventually true belief coagulates into fixed dogma, after they have won control.
Anti-Theistic Zealot? I prefer the label “Born Imaginative non gullable organism” or B.I.N.G.O….
And…stop filling childrens heads with garbage and insisting it’s TRUE. By all means tell them imaginative fictional stories, but double down on the fact thats ITS FUCKING FICTION…oh and make all clerics wear clown outfits….problem solved….
Well, sure, it isn’t surprising to see religions sticking to their dogma, as there aren’t a whole lot of external inputs. That said, I expect it wouldn’t be hard to see the widely subscribed religions shifting on various points over the years. Christian sects probably aren’t going to revise their trinity doctrines etc., but they’ve come up with ways to skate around science findings that they used to butt into, there are woman ministers, Of course, making friends with the power structure.
I’m not seeing this as fatal sclerosis. I’d be surprised if anyone cares about the trinity.
There might be a story for Islam. I mean, obviously it’s still around, but the Islamic world was a center of learning etc. half millennium ago, and it isn’t now – that civilization essentially collapsed and was substantially replaced on a European model. Islam must have played a major role in that. I read that the Wahhabi sect began in the 18th century; before that, spreading of the Shia sect. But also Ottomans, Mongols, etc. Empires are bound to collapse, and maybe it’s a miracle if the associated civilization lives through it.
By the way, another reported example of religion having negative survival value – from wikipedia article on Cambyses II, son of Cyrus the Great.
That’s just an example of using a value system in war, not unique to religion. If instead of those common animals, you use human children as shields you’re more likely to have atheists back off from carpet bombing than religious governments.
The Secular humanists (of which I am a member) are trying to bash the bishop…get those tea-cosy wearing wankers out of the house of lords…in fact the unelected spunk monkies collective needs to be consigned to the annals of historic fuck-ups…
Since the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act,
Humanists UK were gobsmacked
That Lords Spiritual picks
From varied bishoprics
Would be prickless, and that is a fact.
Thanks for the info & feedback. Been in a coma for the last few days – helping my son with pre-engineering maths courses.
Eric Hoffer – a need to re-read!
“… religion can’t entirely take the entire blame/credit.” – There goes omnipotence (yet again).
Religion’s negative survival value – So, that must mean that if a civilisation/culture survives despite its strong religious tendencies, it must be very strong. Good to have a ‘biomarker’ for the might of a nation that isn’t weapons-based.