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	<title>Comments on: euros</title>
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	<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/</link>
	<description>Two prophets, living together.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:52:27 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Kristian</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-157033</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-157033</guid>
		<description>WTF, Crusader Bunny?  &quot;a sarcastic homophobic sheep-fucker who makes a threat to &#039;firebomb any venue where homosexuals hang out&#039;, thats OK so long as I pretend to be a Christian&quot;
Are you *completely* mad? You&#039;re OK to accuse me of the rest of the things (I willingly plead guilty to the very first accusation, the rest we can settle in court) - but accusing me of being a Christian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WTF, Crusader Bunny?  &#8220;a sarcastic homophobic sheep-fucker who makes a threat to &#8216;firebomb any venue where homosexuals hang out&#8217;, thats OK so long as I pretend to be a Christian&#8221;<br />
Are you *completely* mad? You&#8217;re OK to accuse me of the rest of the things (I willingly plead guilty to the very first accusation, the rest we can settle in court) &#8211; but accusing me of being a Christian?</p>
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		<title>By: John Moore</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156969</link>
		<dc:creator>John Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156969</guid>
		<description>Finally GOD has shown us the truth....http://news.yahoo.com/comics/unstrange-phenomena.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally GOD has shown us the truth&#8230;.<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/comics/unstrange-phenomena.com" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/comics/unstrange-phenomena.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daoloth</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156965</link>
		<dc:creator>Daoloth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@ST and My cat is G. Thanks for your comments. Very thoughtful. Craving your indulgence I will try to explain my position.
I am not a pacifist- just conflicted about human nature! And hence inconsistent, I&#039;m afraid.
I was brought up by a &quot;war hero&quot; (my father) who said that he and the others who joined up were idiots who were sold a bill of goods. It was me who always tried to argue that the war he fought in was a just one- his point was that this was utterly irreleavnt to why he and the others joined up. He maintained that young men were easily manipulable idiots. I have not resolved this conflict myself.
I see young islamists talking the same way as young men did way back then with the older ones egging them on. I think that human nature is the same everywhere.
I also used to think that most joined thinking that it would not happen to them-because that kind of makes sense to me- but then I read some of the accounts of the first world war and started wondering what kept people in the trenches and going over the top day after day in the teeth of certain death. There are a lot of reasons of course (red caps with guns being one) but at least part of the reason is a sacrificial attitude. Some examples:
&quot;Since my earliest childhood I have always dreamed of dying for my country. Let me sleep where the accident of battle shall have placed me, by the side of those who, like myself, shall have died for France&quot; (George Morillot- letter to parents, 1914.)
&quot;The last sixteen months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. Heroism has come back to the earth....The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefield&quot; (P.H.Pearse, founder of Irish revolutionary movement, observing WWI carnage).
There is a surprisingly large amount of this stuff. I have never felt like this in my life, but then I have never felt part of something that has been threatened. Or that it is claimed is being threatened.
Young men, especially, can be made to feel like this remarkably easily- they do not have to be stupid, poor, ill-educated or mad- just witness our local home-grown sacrificial victims for, say, the 7/7 bombings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ST and My cat is G. Thanks for your comments. Very thoughtful. Craving your indulgence I will try to explain my position.<br />
I am not a pacifist- just conflicted about human nature! And hence inconsistent, I&#8217;m afraid.<br />
I was brought up by a &#8220;war hero&#8221; (my father) who said that he and the others who joined up were idiots who were sold a bill of goods. It was me who always tried to argue that the war he fought in was a just one- his point was that this was utterly irreleavnt to why he and the others joined up. He maintained that young men were easily manipulable idiots. I have not resolved this conflict myself.<br />
I see young islamists talking the same way as young men did way back then with the older ones egging them on. I think that human nature is the same everywhere.<br />
I also used to think that most joined thinking that it would not happen to them-because that kind of makes sense to me- but then I read some of the accounts of the first world war and started wondering what kept people in the trenches and going over the top day after day in the teeth of certain death. There are a lot of reasons of course (red caps with guns being one) but at least part of the reason is a sacrificial attitude. Some examples:<br />
&#8220;Since my earliest childhood I have always dreamed of dying for my country. Let me sleep where the accident of battle shall have placed me, by the side of those who, like myself, shall have died for France&#8221; (George Morillot- letter to parents, 1914.)<br />
&#8220;The last sixteen months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. Heroism has come back to the earth&#8230;.The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefield&#8221; (P.H.Pearse, founder of Irish revolutionary movement, observing WWI carnage).<br />
There is a surprisingly large amount of this stuff. I have never felt like this in my life, but then I have never felt part of something that has been threatened. Or that it is claimed is being threatened.<br />
Young men, especially, can be made to feel like this remarkably easily- they do not have to be stupid, poor, ill-educated or mad- just witness our local home-grown sacrificial victims for, say, the 7/7 bombings.</p>
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		<title>By: Crusader Rabid</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156962</link>
		<dc:creator>Crusader Rabid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156962</guid>
		<description>@grouchy-one: no that&#039;s not a definition, broad or otherwise, I just indicated a specific form of lying, which is fiction in the same way as if someone posted &quot;all gays are terrorists&quot;, for eg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@grouchy-one: no that&#8217;s not a definition, broad or otherwise, I just indicated a specific form of lying, which is fiction in the same way as if someone posted &#8220;all gays are terrorists&#8221;, for eg.</p>
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		<title>By: Grouchy-One</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156961</link>
		<dc:creator>Grouchy-One</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 08:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156961</guid>
		<description>@C Rabid - that&#039;s quite a broad definition for lying you have. Do you read fiction? Is that called lying too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@C Rabid &#8211; that&#8217;s quite a broad definition for lying you have. Do you read fiction? Is that called lying too?</p>
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		<title>By: Crusader Rabid</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156957</link>
		<dc:creator>Crusader Rabid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156957</guid>
		<description>@ Mr Gronk: that&#039;s quite some ability you&#039;ve got there, and no I&#039;m not suggesting any moral equivalence such as you had in mind.
@grouchy-one (&amp; author, for that matter): so if I&#039;m a sarcastic homophobic sheep-fucker who makes a threat to &quot;firebomb any venue where homosexuals hang out&quot;, thats OK so long as I pretend to be a Christian? That&#039;s called lying, where I come from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Mr Gronk: that&#8217;s quite some ability you&#8217;ve got there, and no I&#8217;m not suggesting any moral equivalence such as you had in mind.<br />
@grouchy-one (&amp; author, for that matter): so if I&#8217;m a sarcastic homophobic sheep-fucker who makes a threat to &#8220;firebomb any venue where homosexuals hang out&#8221;, thats OK so long as I pretend to be a Christian? That&#8217;s called lying, where I come from.</p>
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		<title>By: grouchy-one</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156953</link>
		<dc:creator>grouchy-one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 04:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156953</guid>
		<description>&quot;Can someone explain why Kristian’s post (Oct. 22 @ 3:14pm) is not in breach of the ‘homophobic ammendment’?&quot;
Dear CRabid, perhaps you missed the sarcasm. It changes the entire nature of the post from homophobic to &quot;religio-phobic&quot; which fits in quite nicely round here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Can someone explain why Kristian’s post (Oct. 22 @ 3:14pm) is not in breach of the ‘homophobic ammendment’?&#8221;<br />
Dear CRabid, perhaps you missed the sarcasm. It changes the entire nature of the post from homophobic to &#8220;religio-phobic&#8221; which fits in quite nicely round here.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr Gronk</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156949</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Gronk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156949</guid>
		<description>@ C Rabid
The (other) irony I’m detecting is the ability to see some kind of equivalence between terrorist threats and wealth accumulation.

Given that the Vatican accumulated its wealth by threatening people with supernatural terrors, yes, there&#039;s a sort of equivalence. 
Are you in turn suggesting a moral equivalence between wealth accumulation (by which I assume you mean wealth creation) and the parasitism of the Vatican?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ C Rabid<br />
The (other) irony I’m detecting is the ability to see some kind of equivalence between terrorist threats and wealth accumulation.</p>
<p>Given that the Vatican accumulated its wealth by threatening people with supernatural terrors, yes, there&#8217;s a sort of equivalence.<br />
Are you in turn suggesting a moral equivalence between wealth accumulation (by which I assume you mean wealth creation) and the parasitism of the Vatican?</p>
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		<title>By: MyCatIsGod</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156941</link>
		<dc:creator>MyCatIsGod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156941</guid>
		<description>@Innocent Bystander

Pedants&#039; corner: the translation would be terrorist*s*, as mujahideen is the plural of mujahid :-)

And, in any case, a proper translation of mujahid is simply someone who strives or makes an effort. I&#039;ve heard Arab friends who are working two jobs to support themselves through university described as &#039;mujahid&#039; - because of the huge effort they&#039;re making, and with no connotation of terrorism. Of course, one who wages war on behalf of Allah is also called a mujahid - but the root is the same. They&#039;re making a big effort and lots of personal sacrifices to do so.

Wish they wouldn&#039;t bother, though.

Right - that&#039;s more than enough boring words from me for one strip!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Innocent Bystander</p>
<p>Pedants&#8217; corner: the translation would be terrorist*s*, as mujahideen is the plural of mujahid <img src='http://www.jesusandmo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And, in any case, a proper translation of mujahid is simply someone who strives or makes an effort. I&#8217;ve heard Arab friends who are working two jobs to support themselves through university described as &#8216;mujahid&#8217; &#8211; because of the huge effort they&#8217;re making, and with no connotation of terrorism. Of course, one who wages war on behalf of Allah is also called a mujahid &#8211; but the root is the same. They&#8217;re making a big effort and lots of personal sacrifices to do so.</p>
<p>Wish they wouldn&#8217;t bother, though.</p>
<p>Right &#8211; that&#8217;s more than enough boring words from me for one strip!</p>
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		<title>By: MyCatIsGod</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/10/20/euros/#comment-156939</link>
		<dc:creator>MyCatIsGod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusandmo.net/?p=1021#comment-156939</guid>
		<description>@Daoloth (and Stephen Turner)

Far from flaming, I think there&#039;s a lot of truth in that. Although one could have a philosophical argument about the merits and/or necessity of leadership: could an army have been assembled for the quasi-suicidal operation that was the Normandy landings in WWII without large amounts of propaganda and misinformation by &#039;old men&#039;? And where would Europe be now, if it couldn&#039;t? I&#039;m playing devil&#039;s advocate, of course - and from your comments you sound like a committed pacifist (a position I respect, but don&#039;t personally endorse), so you would probably push back against this point. But it&#039;s a fair debate, I think you&#039;d agree.

@John Moore

Not being devil&#039;s advocate here: I&#039;m afraid I rather disagree. Sadly - very sadly - terrorism almost always works. That&#039;s not rhetoric on my part. Look at the withdrawal of US forces from Beirut after the car bombing there; the gain of power by former Irish paramilitaries (of both persuasions) through bombing their way to negotiations; the withdrawal of US bases from Saudi Arabia; the hijacking of aeroplanes by the PLO to raise awareness of their cause; and many, many other examples.

On a deeper level, one can construct an argument which shows that any society that tries to resist violent attempts to de-democratise it (crudely what al-Qa&#039;idah and its affiliates are trying to do now, at least in one sense) will inevitably have to focus more on security and less on preserving the civil rights of its citizenship. Hence a &#039;victory&#039; of sorts for the suicide bomber. We&#039;ve seen a lot of that in the West since September 2001.

And on a deeper level still, the very fact that this website exists, that in the West issues of terrorism and security are never far from the news and our collective consciousness, and that world policy is forced to adapt to whatever violence it is faced with, shows that terrorism always, always, always has an influence on us. And the hand of the rational is often forced in a direction that would not normally be of his choosing (such as giving up on democracy in Afghanistan - which looks likely - or self-censorship when discussing religion, or finding new sources of oil in dubious African dictatorships rather than the old dictatorships in the Middle East), simply through this forced response.

Just a few thoughts for bedtime :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Daoloth (and Stephen Turner)</p>
<p>Far from flaming, I think there&#8217;s a lot of truth in that. Although one could have a philosophical argument about the merits and/or necessity of leadership: could an army have been assembled for the quasi-suicidal operation that was the Normandy landings in WWII without large amounts of propaganda and misinformation by &#8216;old men&#8217;? And where would Europe be now, if it couldn&#8217;t? I&#8217;m playing devil&#8217;s advocate, of course &#8211; and from your comments you sound like a committed pacifist (a position I respect, but don&#8217;t personally endorse), so you would probably push back against this point. But it&#8217;s a fair debate, I think you&#8217;d agree.</p>
<p>@John Moore</p>
<p>Not being devil&#8217;s advocate here: I&#8217;m afraid I rather disagree. Sadly &#8211; very sadly &#8211; terrorism almost always works. That&#8217;s not rhetoric on my part. Look at the withdrawal of US forces from Beirut after the car bombing there; the gain of power by former Irish paramilitaries (of both persuasions) through bombing their way to negotiations; the withdrawal of US bases from Saudi Arabia; the hijacking of aeroplanes by the PLO to raise awareness of their cause; and many, many other examples.</p>
<p>On a deeper level, one can construct an argument which shows that any society that tries to resist violent attempts to de-democratise it (crudely what al-Qa&#8217;idah and its affiliates are trying to do now, at least in one sense) will inevitably have to focus more on security and less on preserving the civil rights of its citizenship. Hence a &#8216;victory&#8217; of sorts for the suicide bomber. We&#8217;ve seen a lot of that in the West since September 2001.</p>
<p>And on a deeper level still, the very fact that this website exists, that in the West issues of terrorism and security are never far from the news and our collective consciousness, and that world policy is forced to adapt to whatever violence it is faced with, shows that terrorism always, always, always has an influence on us. And the hand of the rational is often forced in a direction that would not normally be of his choosing (such as giving up on democracy in Afghanistan &#8211; which looks likely &#8211; or self-censorship when discussing religion, or finding new sources of oil in dubious African dictatorships rather than the old dictatorships in the Middle East), simply through this forced response.</p>
<p>Just a few thoughts for bedtime <img src='http://www.jesusandmo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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