You’re ‘likely to suspect’ whatever you need to, to maintain your irrational belief system, and we both know it makes no difference what I or anyone else who disagrees with you says, nothing’s going to change your mind. Nevertheless, as you’re now pretending to be in a position from which you might choose to accept either a theistic explanation, or a rational one, I’d ask you to give that position sincere consideration: Is morality prescribed by an all-powerful deity, or is it evolved?

The evidence it was prescribed by an all-powerful deity – say, the christian god – is that there is a book (the bible in your case) which contains various injunctions and prohibitions, and that some people believe that that book was transcribed by people influenced by or reporting the word of god.

The evidence it is evolved is both inductive and deductive. We can reason backwards from widely or universally accepted moral positions (eg, don’t kill people*), to what the likely causes of such positions would be (we wouldn’t like it if other people killed us and other people seem to be similar enough to us that it’s reasonable to believe they have similar views on the subject; also, a society in which people can freely kill others is likely to be unstable and unproductive). And we can observe behaviour in other species, and in our own species from pre-christian times which is in accordance with this.

*except in tribe/state/etc-sanctioned circumstances

Without a time-machine, it’s not possible to witness the evolution of morality as it happened, but we can observe it in other species and via historical evidence, and deduce logically why and how it came into practice, just as we do with the physical evolution of species. Obviously, it takes a massively backwards and primitive mindset to reject the evidence for the evolution of species – I’m sure you don’t have a problem with that. The evolution of behaviours and cultural practices happened in much the same way.

The problems with the theistic explanation are, well, manifold, but here are some:

Most people don’t believe the bible is the word of god.
Many of the injunctions and requirements in the bible are simply rules and nothing to do with morality.
All of the injunctions in the bible which are to do with morality were practiced prior to the writing of the bible.
Societies which more strictly implement biblical teachings have no less crime than secular ones, indeed, considerably more in many cases.
It’s a circular argument to begin with, as it is predicated on the assumption that god exists and that the bible is his word.
There are others, but that will do for now.

And I would ask you to consider Plato’s point, I mentioned earlier: does god arbitrarily choose what is considered moral, in which case he could invert any or all of his rules at any moment, or does he have no say in it, in which case why do we need the middle-man and where do the rules really come from?

I would also suggest you look up the word ‘deign’ in a dictionary.

Obviously, morality is a set of evolved behaviours and beliefs.

Obviously? Produce scientific proof of this, please. I suspect you are a proponent of Science. By Scientific proof, I mean, adhering to the Scientific Method. You know, devise some experiments, run them, etc.

If you can’t or refuse, then I’m likely to suspect that your “morality” is just some set of beliefs that serve you at the moment. Anything you don’t like you’ll deign it to be “primitive and backwards” and throw it out.

Obviously, morality is a set of evolved behaviours and beliefs. Religion is a standardised set of beliefs, some pertaining to moral questions, others simply rules and rituals, still others masquerading as moral. When a particular religion evolved, it’s fair to assume that most of its rules had some practical purpose – hating homosexuals, for instance, would be a useful attitude if an important objective of your tribe was expansion. That of course to thinking people nowadays seems rampantly immoral, but because it was historically ascribed to the infallible deity, to some or many of his followers even now, when such an attitude has no practical value and its inherent immorality is plainly visible, it is heresy to consider it for what it is – primitive and backwards.

Did you learn the truth about the Eucharist here:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

Do you believe everything you read in Jack Chick tracts?

If something resembling the Eucharist is found in pre-Christian religions, that wouldn’t prove it was borrowed. There are resemblances with the Seder meal. There may be other rituals that also resemble the Eucharist and that might just indicate a foreshadowing given to men to prepare us for the Eucharist.

You suspect that I’m playing a joke on you because I appear to believe in a key doctrine held by the largest Christian denomination in the world? You really ought to get out more and meet different people. The people you hang out with tell you ridiculous things like the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception was invented in the 19th Century and that the Eucharist was borrowed from pre-Christian religions.

The Eucharist is a ritual borrowed from pre-Christian religions and if you truly believe that it IS the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ then you are truly beyond help.

I am beginning to suspect that you might be a wind up and that I may be in the embarrassing position of having fallen hook, line and sinker.

Well, you were so reliable on your assertion on the origin of the Immaculate Conception Doctrine, I’d be crazy not to believe you over 2000 years of consistent Catholic Tradition and the many millions of faithful who have testified to the faith.

Next you’ll be telling me the Eucharist is NOT the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

Toast,

On what standard are we to judge whether God’s choices aren’t the most moral? Just whatever you pick? Is the morality you choose ‘just made up’?

So the big g has free will to choose, but whatever choice he makes is the most moral one?

Sounds like a free pass allowing religionists to have their cake and eat it. Or a return to Plato’s old chestnut – is it good because god does it that way, or does god do it that way because it is good?

Or is he in fact ‘just made up’?

No, I don’t believe it’s all just made up.

KevinC,

God could do it any way that pleased him, but those alternatives don’t please him. I don’t know the heart of God very well, but I do ask for insight from time to time. I’m hopeful to understand it better in the future.