Firstly, my statement was not “such a major generalisation”. I was under the impression that people reading this post would realise that I was talking about rich saudi arab muslims and that arab non muslims would more than likely not be involved in the funding of mosques. It was not meant to be a critisism of all arabs, just those mentioned above. Also, I am aware that arab muslims do this but I don’t know about others so I can hardly accuse people of that if I don’t know for sure.

Secondly, mosque building may well earn brownie points but that is not the only reason it is carried out. It is about spreading islam to places where people don’t want it and it’s about the conquest of infidel lands. Are you defending this practice? You seem to be with your next point about the global caliphate:

“Islam has a lot of social rules and Muslims believe that if everyone was a Muslim the world would be a place without wars, crime etc. Ok, this is great stuff for J and Mo, rather Utopian and quite often plain silly, but if you believe in that then wanting to implement it all over the world surely can’t be taken against you”

Yes it can. You seem to be suggesting that this is ok because they are only trying to ‘do us all a favour’. Well I can do without ‘favours’ like that! I would be happier if they had the capacity to understand that everyone has a choice, but they don’t as this is not allowed in islam. As for most muslims not wanting to convert us by force, I can’t believe you are suggesting this! By trying to outbreed us in our own countries and then voting in an islamic government (when there are enough of them this is what will happen and this is the plan) who will then implement islamic law for all and relegate those of us who refuse to convert, to dhimmi status (those who have not been executed that is), is this not still taking over by force? I think so.

Next, the pigs and monkeys thing. You can tell us we are misinterpreting the koran all you want. You can even tell us that some muslims are misinterpreting the koran, but all this is irrelevant because this IS going on. Not only that, but in the undercover film I watched, none of the hate preachers were challenged by any of the muslims in these mosques. I can only assume the reason for this is that fact that the koran makes it quite clear that these hate preachers are correct, as least as far as islam is concerned, in their opinions of non believers. It can’t possibly be, though you might want to claim this, that they are just respecting the right of these retards to free speach.

Next:

“actually it is not the non-muslims who are vile, according to the Quran, but polytheists only”

Not true. The koran states

[8.55] Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve

I am also sure that I read in one version “non believers are the vilest of men”

This does not say “polytheists are vile but jews, xtians are quite cool” What about other people, Atheists for instance. Does the koran say we are cool too? I don’t think so!

Next,

“Come to Poland one day (I’m Polish) and see what some of the Catholic priests preach here about Jews and you won’t believe your ears. Or what the Orthodox Jews in Israel say sometimes.”

I would agree that it’s not just islam that is guilty of this. The old testament is a vile book too and, let’s face it, all religions preach that they are right and everyone else is wrong. When any of them are up against another religion which is claiming that it is right, they will get upset at this and start issuing insults. This is religion. It is divisive and hateful. I agree and I understand this, but this post was about islam, hence my comments were specifically about islam.

If you know the koran like you want us to believe you do (and I would never claim to be an expert myself), you will know that a huge amount of it is dedicated to making it perfectly clear to muslims that non mulims are not equal to muslims and that we are hated by allah, who just can’t wait to get his filthy hands on us when we die so he can torture us to his hearts content. I think I am right in saying that no other religious book goes to quite the extent that the koran does in this respect, though I repeat, I am no expert.

As for your last bit about how nice muslims are compared to the rest of us, this is not a fair comment. I have gone out of my way on many occasions to help visitors to my country and I am usually very friendly to these people and to strangers generally. I also have to say that the Thai people I met on my travels were extremely friendly and helpful too. I am not too well travelled but most places I have been I have met friendly people. Try telling this theory of yours to the relatives of those who, having travelled to iraq to help iraqis and to protest about the invasion, were kidnapped at gunpoint and had their heads sawn off live on the internet.

There are many more examples of westerners being kidnapped and murdered and there are many examples of travellers being murdered in other countries by non muslims too, but not because their religion told them they should do it I suspect.

The friendliness you experienced was not anything to do with islam, which makes it perfectly clear that muslims should not make friends with non believers, but had everything to do with those people being humans. I agree that islam is the problem, but lets not start making out that muslims are better people than anyone else. You will find that level of hospitality in many other countries and cultures not only with muslims but you will not find it with many strict muslims.

Given their common ancestry, there’s no surprise in finding that proselytizing is encouraged by Islam and Christianity in similar ways. The Great Commission of the New Testament says it all.

If you truly believe that family, friends, anyone you know are faced with the heaven/hell scenario; how could you not beg, plead and threaten them into the right choice? When I think of it, it’s kind of a condemnation of any such follower if they accept that others face eternal torture but won’t make whatever effort it takes to save them.

Actually, of course, I’m glad that so few do. It’s always awkward getting them to stop without hurting their feelings. I just know that they really don’t want to hear that they are victims of wishful thinking from me.

ps Nice post, Guminadrag.

Fair point, yourself. And I’m very open to the idea that I might have misinterpreted what (our wonderful) Author was saying. But it does still strike me as rather ambiguous. But no matter, really, and the overall point about the mismatch between some Muslims’ reactions to single, isolated events and to what we would see as catastrophes, is very well made. And is something I saw time and again when I lived in the Middle East (one exception, though: the Muslim world’s reaction to events in Israel/Palestine is always strong, and a genuine mass movement against what are seen as large scale political and military injustices there. But let’s not even begin to get into that particular debate here..!!)

@Guminadrag

Very nicely put. I value this comment page when like-minded people (i.e. people who don’t believe in god(s) – I like that phrase too, ) have nice, sensible conversations, and share their experiences. And some fun along the way too, of course. But I’ve been getting a bit worried the last few months at how a few (the minority, to be sure) comments are leaning further and further away from playfulness and rational thought, towards what could be termed spitefulness and aggression (qualities that, ironically, we decry in the religious). I was unskilfully trying to talk about that in my own post, but you did it rather better. Just because we’re all atheists, it doesn’t mean we know everything, or should have our ‘own’ set of dogma and ideology about stuff. For me, atheism means exactly the opposite to that.

As an aside, I also lived in Yemen (for three years) and had the time of my life. I fell in love with that wonderful country, its amazing people, and its often inspiring culture. There were things, horrible things, I hated too – usually linked to religious brainwashing and ignorance. But that, for me, could never wipe out all those positive experiences I had.

I strongly dislike Islam (and all the other organised religions). But I love Arabs and Arab culture. For me, that’s not trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

(I also love Poles, btw – one particular one, in fact Can’t get the hang of your language, though, no matter how much I try. It makes French and Arabic look like child’s play…)

- In most comments it looks as if everybody thought Muslims, Arabs and Iranians were the same. While it is true that most Arabs and many Iranians are Muslim, it is not definitely the case that Arabs and Iranians (or Persians as many prefer to be called) are the same. It’s really important to remember that, as the two gropus are usually far less than friendly with respect to each other.

- In Farsi “Death to xxx” is much weaker than the translation into English – more accurate would be “Down with xxx”.

- Ahmadinejad is a populist idiot and not very representative of the majority of Iranians.

- http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-how-to-spot-a-lame-lame-argument-1667373.html

@Godless not gormless:
“I was reffering to the fact that saudi arabs fund mosque building in every country they can outside of islamic countries in order to spread islam and in the hope of acheiving a global caliphate. They then fund hate preachers to speak in these mosques, preaching that us non muslims are vile, just like the koran says. They also fund islamic schools to teach children that jews and xtians are pigs and monkeys and of course that non muslims are vile, just like the koran says”

It’s such a major generalisation that I really don’t know where to begin, but let’s try. It’s not only the Saudis that fund mosques, in general you score a lot of points for the afterlife if you do build a mosque so many Muslims who have enough money do it – it just happens that many rich Muslims come from Saudi Arabia, but not only. As for the global caliphate, Islam has a lot of social rules and Muslims believe that if everyone was a Muslim the world would be a place without wars, crime etc. Ok, this is great stuff for J and Mo, rather Utopian and quite often plain silly, but if you believe in that then wanting to implement it all over the world surely can’t be taken against you, at least if you don’t want to do it by force, as is in fact the case with most Muslims – you just never hear about them, because, surprisingly, they’re not the ones who blow themselves up.

There’s also that thing with pigs and monkeys. There is nothing in the Quran that states Jews and Christians are pigs and monkeys, it is a common misinterpretation of the suras 7:166, 2:65 and 5:60 which state that God (on one occasion) turned some unrepentant Jews into pigs and apes (NB if you read Terry Pratchett you might know a distinction between monkeys and apes can be very, very important). No, it is not a nice thing to do, but hey, we’re talking about a monotheistic God here. Tell me when you find a nice monotheistic God that doesn’t do nasty stuff to people who don’t believe in him. And actually it is not the non-muslims who are vile, according to the Quran, but polytheists only, Jews and Christians are kind of cool in many places. No, it’s not nice either, but, again, it is organised religion. Come to Poland one day (I’m Polish) and see what some of the Catholic priests preach here about Jews and you won’t believe your ears. Or what the Orthodox Jews in Israel say sometimes.

All of the above can be summed up in one sentence: don’t blame it on Muslims, blame it on organised religion. I know many Arabs, Iranians and Muslims (European and non-European) – I lived in Yemen for two years and travelled around Iran for a month – who themselves are great, open-minded people. And Westerners could learn a lot from many of them, especially in terms of hospitality, friendliness and social values. When was the last time a total stranger stopped doing everything he was doing to show you around his city and invite you to stay and eat in his house indefinitely? Go to Yemen, and, despite the bad reputation it has in the press, I can guarantee it will happen to you within the first two days of your stay there.

I think YOU need to read your comment again and you will see that it quite definitely implies that this is exactly what Ayashi meant. Maybe you need to be more careful about how you word your comments. I don’t even know what there is in Ayashi’s comments that would put any thinking person off anyway.

Where did Ayashi, or anyone else for that matter, mention anything about wanting to see “entire populations, or individuals, wiped out.”? How did we get into this? The first mention of this seems to be from whatabastor, I can see nothing close to this in any other posts.

“Surely descending to that level is the ultimate unenlightened, barbarous state?”

You are over reacting. A bit like muslims do. In fact you sound like you’re a sympathiser which I think is crazy. So, I suppose you were referring to my comment about making the arabs rich. I was reffering to the fact that saudi arabs fund mosque building in every country they can outside of islamic countries in order to spread islam and in the hope of acheiving a global caliphate. They then fund hate preachers to speak in these mosques, preaching that us non muslims are vile, just like the koran says. They also fund islamic schools to teach children that jews and xtians are pigs and monkeys and of course that non muslims are vile, just like the koran says.

This is funded by arabs states where they have too much money, earned from their trading with the west. I hardly think that commenting on this makes me barbaric. Beheading people, lopping off limbs, public floggings etc, these things are barbaric. islamic teachings are biggoted and full of hatred, yet if we criticise we are barbaric?

I don’t think so

I believe access to the original J&M has been progressively banned by muslim countries – I wish you success in keeping your translated version available – and continued anonymity from your country-men who might not appreciate it as you do.

I don’t think anyone here wants to see entire populations, or individuals, wiped out.

Good luck. Welcome.

I am an ex-muslim from Saudi of all places, and I can tell you that like everywhere and every religion, we’ve had our movements since… forever to abolish religion and show that there is none of that BS.

With the internet many are writing, and many are becoming non-religious, here is a facebook group of those that consider themselves to be atheist
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=43033183777

this is a list of all Arabic blogs which are opposed to religion
http://new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=71491740779

Now, I was just going to write something about me, but I am disappointed to see people who do not believe in religion want people (entire populations) to be wiped out… I am not going to add any more.

However, I would like to thank the author and all those that are maintaining and adding the nice info that always keeps me and others coming back to see the humor in all the madness.

Cheers

Even more disturbing, though, is how every television coverage of the murder on Dutch tv trivilised the murder and tried to sell to people that being murdered was a normal and forseeable and therefore self-inflicted outcome of being a satirist who didn’t shy away from telling muslims to stop bullying people.

He’s saying there’s a double-standard amongst muslims – ie. hysteria when some racist maniac stabs a muslim egyptian to death in Germany vs total silence when muslims slaughter muslims by the tens of thousands in Iran, Iraq, Algeria etc.

Firstly, in fairness, the two situations explored by the cartoon aren’t directly comparable. The Iranian government didn’t target protestors because they weren’t Muslims (i.e. it was about politics, not religion). And the Janjaweed don’t target black Sudanese because they’re not Muslims (it was about traditional racial/tribal tensions and resources, not religion). Iraq is a bit different – it’s sectarian violence, certainly, but Shia’ vs Sunni violence there has far more in keeping with, say, Catholic/Protestant violence in Northern Ireland during the Troubles (as Dawkins astutely pointed out – the IRA and the Unionists weren’t going hammer and tongs at each other over differences on the theology of transubstantiation). However, the poor German lady was indeed targeted (and murdered) because she was a Muslim, and for no other reason. I’m not saying that justifies the response of some Arab states – but simply that it isn’t really a direct comparison.

Secondly, I live in Northern France, and the language spoken here is overwhelmingly French. The Algerians in my local chip shop use only French, even when I speak to them in Arabic. Most Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans here are the same. A few Arabic words have entered the language (Flous for money, Tabib for doctor, etc.) but as almost all words in English that start with ‘al’ have an Arabic root (alchemy, alcohol, algebra, etc.), there’s not too much that can be made of that, surely.

Finally, @ Ayashi and Godless not Gormless and a few others: have we moved on from making fun of illogical religious beliefs to fairly naked Arab-bashing here? If so, then this is a very sad conclusion to my years of enjoyment of the discussions on J&Mo. Not to mention the deep irony inherent in implying that a whole culture and people are unenlightened and barbarous. Surely descending to that level is the ultimate unenlightened, barbarous state?

Just my 2 centimes worth