How about we *all* grow a thicker skin.

and hai kiwiathiest – I generally look silly anyway. It tends to go hand in hand with my extreme bloody-mindedness.

I didn’t say think that everyone who has a problem with that word being used is sexist. I asked what your question was supposed to mean, and asked if it meant one suggestion. I didn’t know what you meant, which is why I asked.

Clearly you’re not engaging any more, you’re just firing shots. I won’t waste any more time.

As for the self hating thing, when men use the word ‘dick’ to describe someone they find objectionable, are they also being self hating?

Also, just because I think that a lot of really sexist men would have a problem with women using the word cunt, doesn’t mean that I think that everyone who has a problem with that word being used is sexist.

I could draw you an explanatory Venn diagram if that would help.

Chris Rock is Chris Rock. You do realize such an act would have somewhat different resonances if it were done by a white person, right?

“So when women use ‘cunt’ to mean evil malicious badness, are they all self hating?”

Verging on it, yes.

“One thing that I am completely sure of is that really sexist men would be appalled by women calling people cunts.”

Oh please – what is that supposed to mean? That I’m objectively sexist and just pretending to be anti-sexist? Give me a fucking break.

but to reply to the point you said above -

” Maybe I can make this clearer with an anaology. Suppose you encounter some people using ‘nigger’ exactly the way people now use ‘cunt.’ Suppose one of them explained to you, “Also, sometimes it is justified. Some people behave like utter niggers.” Would you be persuaded? ”

My answer would be Chris Rock doing stand up.
His use of the word ‘nigger’ is one of the sharpest acts I’ve ever seen.
And he used ‘nigger’ in exactly the same way that most people use ‘cunt’.

We are the masters of the words we use as long as we understand how to use them.

Words mean nothing without context.
Context is all.

So when women use ‘cunt’ to mean evil malicious badness, are they all self hating? Or just making use of language in the way that they like?

One thing that I am completely sure of is that really sexist men would be appalled by women calling people cunts.

And what is it with this ‘godalmighty’ shit?
Use a proper swear word for fucks sake, we know what you mean.

I doubt it, and I hope not. At any rate, the point is (obviously) “niggers” (like “cunts”) doesn’t inherently mean evil malicious bad person. Epithets are constructed by people who want a strong word for various kinds of people they don’t like. There is nothing inherent in the word “cunt” that causes it to mean evil malicious bad person – its official meaning is simply female genitalia. The fact that people (men) choose that to mean evil malicious badness is pretty unmistakably to equate the female genitalia and by extension women with evil malicious badness.

Yes yes, I know about the other genitalia words, and I don’t use them either, for this reason.

“Also, sometimes it is justified. Some people behave like utter cunts.”

Meaning, some people behave like utter female genitalia – yet you want me to agree that that in no way equates evil malicious badness with women.

Godalmighty.

As for the use of names for genitalia as swear words, I could understand your point if it is was only words for female genitalia that were used in this way, however that is obviously not the case. People use dick, cock, bollocks and knob just as much as they use cunt or twat. Even penis is an insult, although weirdly, vagina generally isn’t. You then have non genital words like arse or tits that are used as well, or verbs like fuck, shit or piss. To even try and make the argument that the usage is automatically sexist, especially given how interchangeably the various words are used by women as well as men, just doesn’t stand up to analysis.

As to the folk who are saying “of course I can call you a cunt”, well it may be offensive but it isn’t sexist against women unless you can demonstrate that those people only use words for female genitalia when swearing at women, or never use the names for male genitalia when swearing. Also, sometimes it is justified. Some people behave like utter cunts.

At cunt, twat and pussy. At currently contemptuous/hostile words for the female genitalia used as epithets. That’s where. And I wouldn’t call it drawing the line, but if I accept your term for the sake of argument, I would also stipulate that by drawing the line I mean criticism, empatically not censorship. I have to stipulate that because the ‘Of course I can call you a cunt!’ crowd loves to conflate the two.

The word ‘woman’ itself comes from a root meaning of ’shame/pudenda-person’. Should I stop using that word as well? At what point do you draw the line? There are lots of words that can offend by association, but if we tried to eliminate them all then we would have very few words left to use at all.

Even the word ‘is’ has opponents who would like to see it be thoroughly removed from the language due to the way that it shapes our thinking. They also have a more convincing argument than the one you have put forward for not using pussy as an insult. I suspect that that would be problematic and fairly unenforceable however.

Yes, calling people a dick probably is sexist, which is why I’ve stopped doing it.

I’m not claiming that equal rights is completely dependent on who calls whom a pussy, or anything like that – I’m just claiming that a sexist epithet is just that. It doesn’t help.

As to the general use of sexual terms as insults, what about calling someone a dick, a cock or accusing them of talking bollocks? I presume that is also sexist.

I’m all for treating folk equally, but I’m not sure that equal rights really has anything to with someone accusing a fictional deity of being a bit of a pussy.

“It is here too, but only because it is alleging cowardice or male femininity”

This is what I’m saying, obviously. That is sexist. It is sexist to tell a man ‘You’re such a girl.’

Jeezis. This stuff is unreal.

It is here too, but only because it is alleging cowardice or male femininity. In the case of calling a woman a pussy, if you were to say “that woman is a fucking pussy”, it would mean cowardice and nothing else really. No-one would usually think that you were calling them a vagina.

If on the other hand you said “that’s a nice bit of pussy” while referring to a woman then the meaning is obviously sexual.

Also in the UK calling someone a cunt has a totally separate meaning from calling them a pussy. A cunt is someone who is being deliberately nasty, usually in an aggressive way. A twat on the other hand is more reserved for people who repeatedly display idiocy on a grand scale, especially in an antisocial manner.

Turandot’s comment looks as sexist to me as it did at first. If I’m wrong Turandot is of course welcome to tell me so, but for now, I see pussy there as meaning exactly the same thing as twat or cunt.

The meanings that I am aware of being in common usage are that you can talk about a pussy as an object and be referring to either a cat or a vagina, or you can talk about a person as being a pussy and be describing either an effeminate man, or a coward of either sex (or even a cowardly animal, so you could say, “that pussy is such a fucking pussy”). These meanings can be used completely independently.

So given that Turandot said “is such a pussy” as opposed to “has a nice pussy”, I think it is fairly clear what the implied meaning was.

I don’t see how it’s reasonable to equate that with ‘women are weak cowardly parasites‘.

I wonder if your reading of it is dependent on the second part:
‘He is unable to do a thing to protect himself or his reputation…‘
- which I hadn’t thought about much until re-reading it now. I can see how, if you a priori take ‘pussy’ to be a reference to women, the ‘protect his reputation’ might suggest a patriarchal, sexist view of women’s sexuality. I don’t think it comes close to justifying your initial response though. And it’s a circular argument.