That kind of love makes me feel all warm and fluffy inside. Where do I sign?

I realized another question may arise from my previous reply, such as “Don’t other religions KNOW that their god is real as well?” I suppose they feel they do, and quite possibly God has a plan for them as well. I believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, but I recently watched an episode of “30 days” where a practicing Christian goes to live with Muslims for 30 days. It was eye-opening. It’s on Hulu.com, if you’re interested at all.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your discussion here, people. I’m done now. Carry on. God Bless.

The reason I believe in God is not because I’m a Christian or vice versa. Although I didn’t go to church when I was younger, I’ve just always believed. I don’t have all the answers for either side of the arguement, but I suppose I was “comfortable” with the concept of God rather than the idea that there is no God. I was probably still going to hell, though.

I had an experience within the last few months that led me to accept Jesus as my Savior. The story is that I signed up to be part of prayer vigil after going to church just a couple weeks on a regular basis. Anyone who signed up for a certain time was to be at the church at that time, and pray for an hour for all people with prayer requests and anyone else we wanted to pray for. Only 3 people were at the church each hour, and we went to one of the three rooms that are empty.

I had never prayed for more than a couple minutes and I didn’t see how I was going to pray for an hour. The time I chose was 11pm and I got there early after watching a playoff basketball game. I watched as one of the 10:00 guys had his hands in the air and was praying fairly loudly, but not loud enough for me to hear him. He walked up to the podium where our preacher usually preaches, prayed with his hands up in the air some more and then got down on his face and stomach to pray. Hmm. I’d never seen that before. None of that stuff was me. I had no idea what I was going to do but pray for a bit. At 11, I entered a room that had a table, a lamp, a radio with some cds and a booklet with a recommedation on how to start to pray. I read through it and started to pray with a “Well, here goes!” type of approach.

I then prayed for and hour and a half.

What happened that night was amazing. I know I’m not persuading anyone by writing any of this, but 15 minutes into the prayer, I KNEW there was a God, and he was there with me. I just KNEW. I’d believed before, but not to the extent I do now. I hadn’t gone into it thinking “This is going to be GREAT! I can’t wait!” I thought I was going there to pray for a few people. I just KNEW he was doing miracles as I prayed. I also knew He was not answering other prayers of mine, for reasons only He knows. I suppose many non-Christians would like a better explanation, but that’s the best I can do. The closest I can come to a better explanation is comparing it to one of the Author’s other comic between Jesus and Mo. I am now “pretending really, really hard.” Only now I know I’m not pretending.

I see your points and don’t yet have a good answer for the last one. God bless and thanks again for the reply.

As far as I can see, your reasoning seems to be along these lines:

You believe that anyone who does not believe in god will go to hell for ever when they die.

The reason you believe this is because you believe the christian god exists and this is what he wants.

The reason you believe in the christian god particularly (instead of any other flavour) is that you are american and christians there are the majority, so the chances are an american is likely to be a christian.

The reason you believe in god generally is, as far as I can see, because you are a christian.

Your reasoning appears to be entirely circular – ie, there is no reason for any of your positions except that *that is your position*; I think you would have to admit it is not very persuasive to anyone approaching the question with an open mind.

Moreover, there are numerous other problems with your position.

You say that god has given us free-will, and that if through that free-will we choose not to believe in him, he will torture us for ever (though by comparison, if I burnt down a school tomorrow killing a thousand children I would be forgiven as long as I said sorry to him afterwards).

Every action we commit is the product of our thoughts, conscious or un/subconscious. Every thought in our minds is ultimately described by the movement of atoms in our brains. God is infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing and created everything there is. There isn’t any part of the universe he can’t reach, and nothing in existence was created by anyone else. He created every particle and atom in the universe and the forces which govern their motion and behaviour; he set them moving, and he knows exactly where each one is at any point. He knows the whole history of everything from the beginning to the end. So he knows every thought in our heads, and every thought we will ever have, and that everyone who will ever be born will ever have. He is also perfect, so nothing can be in any way other than how he wants it to be.

Something which is perfect cannot be better than it is. It cannot be altered in any way that would improve it. You cannot add something to something which is perfect and improve it. If god is perfect he cannot want anything. He knows how everything is, and how it is going to be, and that is exactly how he wants it to be. Therefore if a person lives their whole life never believing in god, he knew that was how that person was going to be, he created all the matter which constitutes them which made them that way, and that is exactly how he wanted them to be. I can’t see how it would then be fair to punish that person.

“Purushottam – indeed. Though is there a difference between believing there is no god, and not believing there is a god?”

Jesus H.
“Here’s nobody coming to see me.”(c) Lewis Carroll.

Does that mean somebody is coming?

Yes, the basis of my argument was from the common definition of “Atheist,” i.e., a person who denies, with certainty, the existence of any god. Your definition is enlightening.

My Webster comes closer to your definition rather than the definition of common usage. It states, “One who believes there is no God. It does not state “one who knows there is no god.” Still, the dictionary (poor reference as it is), cannot use the word “knows” simply because that would imply there is no god whether one believes it or not, and the lexicographer cannot make that assumption.

However, in the common lexicon, I think “agnostic” must necessarily exist to distinguish from the common usages of “theist” and “atheist.”

Thanks to both of you.

Thanks for expanding your previous points; I do see the point you are trying to make, and I share your instinctive aversion to an apparently dogmatic binary division, but as JohnnieCanuck said above, on the question of whether or not one has belief in god the answer really is ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

Saying that you want to answer the question from logic not belief doesn’t alter the question itself. It is explicitly a question of belief: Do you believe in god? The theist answers ‘yes’. If you can’t answer ‘yes’ then you are an atheist. The question is not asking how one weighs the evidence – the subject of the question is not any evidence or lack of it. It is not asking whether one can prove or say with certainty that there isn’t a god – again, as JohnnieCanuck said above and Purushottam reiterated, ‘the strongest claim an Atheist can logically make is that the existence of a god is extremely unlikely’.

Saying that you do not have faith that there is a god is not the same as saying that you know there isn’t one. They are different categories of statement. It sounds as though you are assuming that an atheist states that he knows there isn’t a god, but that is not the atheist position. It is in fact the way theists often prefer to characterise the atheist position, as it is easy for them to attack – as you say, ‘I can’t say that i know there isn’t one’ – but an atheist does not say that in the first place.

If you have belief in the existence of god you are a theist. If not, you’re an atheist. Evidence for or against is a different question. Questions of belief are different from questions about evidence.

Yes, I am well aware of how the theist states the question. Even some atheists state it the same as the theist, “do you believe in God,” or make the statement, “I don’t believe in God.” I am not a theist, so I answer the question from logic, not belief. I don’t see the question as one requiring from me an answer of “yes,” or “no.” One must state what god one is talking about. If Yahweh, no. Any god? I can’t say “no” just because I have no evidence of any god. I never answer by saying , “I don’t know.” I often answer by saying, “I don’t believe in the existence of Yahweh, and I tend not to believe in the existence of any god.”

I’m sure you know what is meant by Argumentum ad ignorantiam, (argument from ignorance). Just because we see no proof for the existence of a god cannot be proof that there is no god (and visa versa). Personally, I don’t believe there is one, but from the point of logic, I can’t say that I know there isn’t one. Therefore, I am agnostic.

And, don’t think I believe this to be a comfortable position. I get attacked from both sides.

Certainly I acknowledge Russell’s Teapot. But what is one to say if the question is asked, “What evidence do you have to support your assertion that there is this teapot in space? You make the claim. Demonstrate that it is so.”

Even if one points ancient texts, there still is no evidence to support the claim. I fully understand that the mere absurdity of the claim, and the absence of evidence, is good reason to disbelieve, but a teapot isn’t anything like a our notion of a god any more than a watch is anything like the universe. Thus, I can’t say for certain there is, and I can’t say for certain there isn’t.

I asked the question, “why is there not nothing,” as a means of relating the fact that our existence is a most strange thing. We are a part of the universe that is aware of its existence and contemplates itself. Exactly how this came about is, at least for now, unknowable. Hence, I’m agnostic about the origin of the universe (other than what science can discern), which would include, or not, gods.

Perhaps, sumus Di?

But, do we make these statements about other highly unlikely things? Unicorns and fairies? We safely assume that they don’t exist and live accordingly. It is in that sense God doesn’t exist.

But, if one is to define god as an entity with property A, I can claim that there is no evidence in support of such entity at all as long as A is a supernatural property.

Purushottam

The question for a theist is ‘Do you believe in god?’, not ‘Do you believe there is convincing evidence for the existence of god?’. Answering ‘I don’t know’ doesn’t seem to answer the question on its own terms. To the question ‘Do you believe?’, my answer has to be ‘no’, but that’s not the same as saying ‘I know there isn’t one’. It sounds, from what you’ve written, as though you would call that an agnostic position, but I don’t think that it is. There is no god in my world, therefore I’m an atheist. (On a side tangent, I don’t really see why I should define myself as such, as it only has meaning from the POV of a believer). If a god ever decided to make himself known then I would need to reconsider my position, but in the meantime there is no evidence for one, therefore I don’t believe in one. I choose not to say ‘I believe’, in the absence of evidence (the theist’s position), because I don’t see any good reason to, and I don’t see any good evidence to accept the existence of such a being so I don’t say I believe in it on the terms in which I believe in, say, Canada (which I’ve never actually been to, but which I’ve seen convincing evidence of).

I don’t see how the question of why there is something rather than nothing has any connection necessarily with the question of god’s existence.

Surely there are an infinite number of things you would need to be agnostic about, the way you have defined it. Bertrand Russell’s teapot for example.

Athiest, but kinda hope (just a wee bit) that God does exist so you can beat the living crap out of him someday? Antagotheist.

(That would be me.)

Agnosticism is, at least for me, the only logical position for intellectual honesty. After a few years of studying world religions and science, I came to the conclusion that, certainly, Yahweh didn’t exist (one cannot make both sides of a contradiction exist). However, I could no more say with certainty that a god does not exist, than that a god does exist. After all, the most perplexing question of all, I think, is: Why is there not nothing?

Thus, I became an agnostic with latent atheistic tendencies. That is to say, since I find no evidence of the existence of a god (in fact, I see contrary evidence–at lest of a benevolent god.), I tend to believe there is no god. However, I cannot, logically, say that with certainty, and I don’t believe anyone else can. Nor do I believe any evidence will ever appear.

As for the lake of fire, created by a “loving” god, it is my belief that the only place in the universe both sides of a contradiction can exist, is in the mind of fundamentalists.

I bet the barmaid saying she disagrees also counts as denying J his right to freedom of belief (athough J & M saying they disagree with her is just fine)

The strongest claim an Atheist can logically make is that the existence of a god is extremely unlikely. This only because it would require proving a negative.

Toast is exactly right about agnosticism vs atheism. In my view, there is no middle ground between theist and atheist. It’s binary. You can say you don’t have enough information to decide which position is true, but really it all comes down to how you live your life.

Pray every day and try to keep a god foremost in your mind in all situations? Theist.

Lost your religion, but atheism label still connotes evil? Agnostic.

Never consider a supernatural agent to be acting in your life? Atheist.

Cynical manipulator taking money from the credulous? Parasite.

Actively counteracting negative actions of theists? Anti-theist?

Personally, most of the time, I don’t actively not-believe in god. I see the world, and that’s what there is. If the subject of god comes up, I can consider it abstractly, but I don’t see its presence or absence in the world. The world is the same. If somewhere there is a god, I see no evidence of its existence – it hasn’t chosen to make its presence known to me. I don’t have to spend any energy believing in it in the absence of evidence, nor disbelieving in it for the lack of it. It’s just not there.

I think this is the reason I stopped thinking of myself as an agnostic (Hobbes); when I realised that religious people actually believe in a god despite the absence of evidence (even because of that absence). It began to seem that agnosticism was a kind of category error: an attempt to position myself at a kind of midpoint between belief and lack of belief, specifically holding open the possibility of belief if proof were to appear. But religious belief is not based on proof, so this position doesn’t fit the question (‘do you have faith?’).

I could say that if evidence of god’s existence were provided I would have to believe in him, but none of the religionists in the world today has experienced such evidence. More to the point, any evidence of an infinitely powerful being could more reasonably be explained by any other (finite) phenomenon than that it is the work of god. So in all probability, while I can say hypothetically that god might exist, in practical terms I might have to add that nothing he could do if he does could reasonably convince me of it.

Which is a bit of an ontological double-bind for the big G.

What would be the definition of a fundamentalist agnostic? Following your logic, she/he would adhere strictly and literally to the belief that no one really knows, strictly and literally, or otherwise, that there is a god.

I think I fit this definition.