“What would Hitler do?”

I once saw a crowd of cows standing on the highway around a cow that had been knocked dead by a truck. Most of the cows had streaks such as made by tears under their eyes. Just because animals dont have brocas convolution in their brains to allow them speech to express their emotions and thoughts dont assume that they dont have intellectual, reasoning and loving capacities.

I can see the argument you are trying to make regarding accounts of Jesus. However, I don’t see how we can be at all sure that the stories weren’t embellished, or that they contained any fact at all, especially since the miracles claimed remain unconfirmed and implausible. And Jesus wouldn’t have been the only man around claiming to be a prophet, or claiming to have performed miracles. Accounts of a few people who thought Jesus claimed to be the son of God and that he performed miracles would be considered absurdly unreliable by any but Christians.

As for the lord liar lunatic scenario, this is indeed a semantic trap. The three possibilities are far too restrictive, and once one of them has been chosen, the trap closes. One scenario I consider likely: Jesus was a fanatic who was willing to risk or sacrifice his own life for his beliefs and/or his followers. This is not one of the possibilities given. Jesus had to be God because nothing else makes sense? Please.

Indeed, there are those like yourself who don’t need to literally believe every story in the bible. But even if these are only stories with a moral, it doesn’t save the bible from that fact that it is a mere book, relatively old, and no more wise than many other books with some moral content.

Once again, from a non-Christian perspective, the bible is just a book, and it is unwise, perhaps even dangerous, to take your moral code from just a book. Any thinking person will develop a moral code on his own. People who don’t kill only because it is forbidden by the bible frighten me. And morality is not an absolute truth except for absolutists. Relativism is not necessary illogical, in fact, it is normally quite logical.

Another thing that disturbs me about the church and its arbitrary and superstitious rules regarding things like homosexuality is that it sets down rules that all should follow. For homosexuals, it makes absolutely no sense to live an unfulfilled life just because a book is against homosexual behavior.

I disagree with what you describe as the point of Greek homosexuality. First, it is pretty well proven that homosexuality is not chosen out of, for example, “admiration of the male strength and beauty”. Rather, it seems to be genetic. It is true that it was not frowned upon, and I don’t believe that there were fewer homosexuals then than now. Homosexual behavior was probably more prominent because it was not taboo and anyone with an interest had no reason not to indulge. Homosexual behavior has always existed alongside heterosexual behavior. I do not see any danger of its driving out heterosexual behavior. There are many animals (including humans of course) that apparently are bisexual when it comes to their sexual behavior. But bisexuals can also reproduce. Even homosexuals can (and do) marry heterosexually and produce children.

I think in your two most recent posts you have relied on arguments that for the most part can only work on avowed Christians. Your earlier posts contained arguments that were, while for me unconvincing, at least based on reasoning not dependent on religion.

You may want to look back on your original intention to convince me that Catholic teachings (on homosexuality or otherwise) are not based on myth. You won’t make much progress with arguments that assume the truth of religion.

My point wasn’t that stories of Jesus weren’t embellished which we are pretty sure they weren’t. My point was that if anyone chose to write about this poor carpenter from Judea then that seems to me to be the equivalent of hundreds writing about the emperor Augustus. Any writing of Jesus proves that he existed. The canonical gospels were written written before 68 A.D, thirty years after Jesus supposedly died. We are pretty sure of this because the Acts of the Apostles has no mention of the destruction of the temple and the diaspora. This would have effected the Apostles in such a drastic way that Luke (author of Acts) would have almost had to have mentioned it. So we know Acts was written before 70 A.D. We also know that the gospels were written before Acts, so this probably means that they were written around or before 68 A.D. All of the other gospels were written 100- 200 years after Jesus died. The further one gets from the actual event the more embellished the story becomes. People would have written anything that mentioned Jesus to get fame. The canonical gospels were the ones always used by the Christians. They were used before the canon was outlined, but when someone asked the question what about this book/gospel/epistle the canon had to be explicitly outlined. The excluded gospels were so far from the time of Jesus when Christianity was becoming popular that writing a new gospel would give them fame. It was always understood, before it was defined by the Catholic Church and these gospels were excluded that public revelation (Scripture) ended with the death of St. John the Evangelist. These gospels weren’t introduced when people accepted a general practice of excluding what wasn’t there already.

The point of the quote was that a Jewish historian writing 30 years or so after Jesus died claimed that he performed miracles and called him God. He was still a Jew when he wrote this. The Jews hated Jesus. 30 years is a short time when it comes to history and a writing that close to Jesus must have plenty of validity especially being by someone who was instructed to think that Jesus was wrong from birth. It says that he performed miracles. Why would anyone say something like this, especially when Christianity was condemned, unless it was true?

The lord, liar, lunatic argument basically states that Jesus was either the greatest liar on the face of the earth and deserved to die for his blasphemy, he was crazy, or he was actually God. The point is he couldn’t have just been a good man with good teachings because he actually spoke the greatest and most unholy blasphemy, claiming that he was God. He was a Jew and Jews were instructed from birth to treat the name of God with respect. No Jew in his right mind would ever make such a claim knowing he was under penalty of death. It just doesn’t seem worth it. Which leads to the next point. He was out of his mind psycho. This probably wasn’t the case either. If you look at his teachings, they seem to make sense. They are compassionate, logical, and sane. Treat others as yourself, turn the other cheek, try to treat your enemies with respect and not to just ostracize them. His teachings were revolutionary and drastically different from the common practice, but in the same way made perfect sense. Jesus knew what he was saying and was fully responsible for it. This means that Jesus must have been God because nothing else makes sense.

There are things in the old Testament that aren’t taken literally. There didn’t have to be a garden of Eden. Or even the rib thing. The point is man and wife and there was a first sin. There has been evidence that there could have been a flood in that Mediterranean/ Black Sea are which was the world to them. There could have been a worldwide flood within their little world. And there is a deeper point. Same with Job, Maccabees (if you are Catholic), etc. There is a point to the story and then the actual story can be translated as literally as reality would allow.

Men have always been seen as superior to women. Men are physically stronger so women were pushed down as simply the child bearers (except in Minoan society). My point was that the West has given women more freedom than they have ever had. The Catholic Church has always taught that women are equal to men, but not always acted upon it. I think people acted upon what they already knew by giving women equality. The reason I said that your point was invalid was because you said that Western moral codes had things in them that you said were fine, but that do have non religious reasons for being bad too. I was actually aware of the ancient Greek practice. I was hoping you wouldn’t know or bring it up. The point of Greek homosexuality was that the admiration of the male strength and beauty was raised from respect and admiration to lust. For society to continue the formula should be man+woman=child. Society cannot continue without this and it seems illogical to have it any other way.

In response to your last point the bible, interpreted with a Christian mindset always works as a good moral guide. You saying that morality is subjective is wrong. Morality is objective because it is part of absolute truth. Once you say that morality is subjective then you have become a relativist and illogical.

Yes, it would make sense that there are few (if any) direct accounts of Jesus. Of course, that also limits the amount of information on him and the chance to confirm any facts with different accounts. And a story can also be embellished, as stories of Jesus must certainly were, especially considering the gospels that were not selected for inclusion in the bible that, as I understand it, contradict other gospels. All in all, not much can be said for sure about Jesus.

Are you talking about the lord liar lunatic argument when you mention semantics? What premises are you referring to and what are the conclusions? What is the point of your quote?

Many western moral codes do make the sexes unequal. Until 100 years or so ago there was still a number of countries where women could not own property, or were considered the property of their husbands. Have we become more Christian since that time or just more logical/moral? Obviously, there are many moral codes in the western world, and many of them display the aspects that I have problems with mentioned in my last post. Furthermore, western morals do not come only from Christianity. That other moral codes are are more prejudiced than western ones is no argument, and your own views, while interesting, are not relevant to my argument. I fail to detect the invalidity of my point. Homosexuality was not always looked down on, incidentally. Check out the history of the ancient Greeks.

There are entire web sites devoted to the bizarre and immoral practices in the old testament. The new testament is also chock-full of ideas that were not so absurd at the time but are absurd now from a scientific perspective. (Noah’s ark, for example, was a genetic impossibility – one pair of any species does not possess enough genes to save the species – but they didn’t know that back then when the story was written. Adam’s rib? Garden of Eden? Believable back then, perhaps, but today?)

Can you really seriously claim that “because the bible says so” is a good reason for moral behavior? Would it not be better in many ways to understand the benefits of moral behavior and the pitfalls of immoral behavior? (keeping in mind that “moral” is quite subjective)

Doesn’t it make more sense that their are only a few direct accounts of Jesus? He the son of a carpenter who lived in the far east of the Roman Empire. He was probably one of the most insignificant people in the known world. Anybody who was anybody lived in Rome. Why would anybody write about an individual in Judea, especially some carpenter. A few accounts of Jesus is proportional to a multitude of accounts of Augustine.

I don’t see how this is just semantics. If the premises make sense and a conclusion follows logically then I don’t see what the problem is. Here is a quote by a historian who wrote a history of the Jews.
“At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many Jews and Gentiles. This was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him.”
This man was a Jew calling Jesus Christ and saying he performed many works. I think Jesus claimed to be God.

Western moral codes do not make the sexes unequal. In China, if a couple has a daughter then they will kill her because they think men are superior so they want a son. Tabooing sex outside of marriage makes sense even in a secular context. I am pro- gay marriage. There is no legal basis for homosexuals to not be allowed to marry. I disagree with homosexual acts, but so have all societies from the beginning. Christianity is not the basis of looking down on homosexuality. Societies have always functioned heterosexually. Homosexuality has always been looked down upon, and Christianity’s belief on homosexuality is less harsh than most beliefs. The problems you see with the Western moral code seem to be invalid.

What parts pf the Bible would you find as absurd? I think, looking through Christian eyes, all parts of the Bible can make sense.